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Edited Transcript of HOLM B.ST earnings conference call or presentation 30-Jan-20 2:30pm GMT

Q4 2019 Holmen AB Earnings Call

Stockholm Feb 5, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Holmen AB earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 2:30:00pm GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Anders Jernhall

Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO

* Henrik Sjölund

Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director

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Conference Call Participants

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* Linus Larsson

SEB, Research Division - Analyst

* Oskar Lindstrom

Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Senior Analyst

* Robin Santavirta

Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst

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Presentation

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [1]

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Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the year-end report presentation for the Holmen Group. We are really happy that you actually spend some time this late in the afternoon to listen to myself, Henrik Sjölund, CEO of the company; and Anders Jernhall, CFO. We know you had a lot of reports today, and it's late in the afternoon, but we'll do it in a swiftly way. Won't we?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [2]

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Of course, we will.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [3]

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So let's start up with some highlights for the fourth quarter. We have an operating profit of SEK 587 million, which is pretty much in line with the third quarter, some SEK 40 million better. We haven't had any big maintenance stops, which has helped. On the other hand, we have had seasonally higher costs, which we have in the fourth quarter normally.

If you look at the whole year 2019 versus 2018, also, the difference in profit is very small, SEK 2.345 billion versus SEK 2.475 billion (sic) [SEK 2.476 billion]. We have taken some decisions in the fourth quarter. We have decided to change the valuation of our forest, which means that the value has increased or doubled more or less from SEK 19 billion to SEK 41 billion, which Anders will come back to a bit later.

We have also decided that we will change or have changed our debt-to-equity target from 50% to 25%. And of course, that's a logical step to take as we have changed the valuation of the forest. And we haven't -- we have decided to invest SEK 1.3 billion in a bit more than 0.4 terawatt hours of wind power which is scheduled to start up at the end of next year.

We have also had a word our Board of Directors in Holmen has also decided to propose at the Annual General Meeting to increase the dividend for the company from SEK 6.75 to SEK 7, which is decision based on the situation in the company, its profitability, future investment plans and, not the least, the financial situation of the company.

So let's go through the different business areas. And once we finalize, we are also happy to take any questions you might have.

Starting off with the forest and the market for wood products or for wood coming out of the forest. We have said before that we have seen that cause of the spruce bark beetle infestation during the summer, there was high output or high supply of wood from the forest and especially sawlogs. Now a bit later during the year, and also in combination with a bit lower activity in some of the industries in the forest industry, we see that we have a situation where prices are slightly lower not only in south of Sweden for sawlogs, but also in the rest of Sweden and also for pulpwood.

And I guess, Anders, this has had some impact on the financial result to the forest.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [4]

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Yes, it has. We saw the Q4 result declined by some SEK 25 million as a result of lower selling prices of wood. Looking year-over-year, 2019 as a whole was the same profit as 2018 more or less. As you might recall, we sold the forest asset last year, 2018, and so the underlying performance 2019 was better than 2018 due to higher selling prices. As you might have noted, we harvested less than normal, 2.7 million cubic meters versus our long-term plan of 3 million cubic meters. The final felling, which we -- is what we earn money on, was on the normal level, but we had less felling activities, and felling is predominantly something you do to manage forest growth to enable higher growth in the future, and it has limited impact on the financial performance, but it had its modest negative impact. The big thing, the main event in Q4 for the forest is, of course, the revaluation where we increased -- changed our accounting method so that we now account for our forest holdings at fair value based on transaction prices in the areas where we own forest. We have made the calculation based on 3-year average selling prices in these areas, and we have looked at both individual transactions and also the market statistics that are available in those areas and arrived at the SEK 41 billion value for our forest holdings.

As you probably know, our total landholding is 1.3 million hectares, but what we have valued is only the productive forest land which is 1.04 million hectares forest land. And in this valuation, the key value driver is location, location, location. And the further south you come in Sweden, the more wood is standing on every hectare. And the further south you are, the rotation cycle becomes shorter, which means that your cash flow becomes closer from the final felling. And when you do the final felling, the logs are bigger which means that they command a higher price per cubic meter when you sell it today.

Sawmills. So that -- this means that the forest holdings is more valuable the more south you come. On top of that, people are also prepared to pay more money in the south and in -- on Sweden and also in the middle than in the north part. There is just higher demand to own forest in these areas. And you can see it from the graph that we now show is that the difference is quite dramatic between the different parts of Sweden. And we have taken that into account in valuing our forest land. The SEK 41 billion value has, according to accounting standards, to be divided upon the growing trees, biological assets and the forest land itself. And we have made that division by doing a DCF calculation using a pretax WACC of 4.5% and arrived that of a value of the trees of SEK 28 billion and of the land at SEK 13 billion.

The value of the trees is -- the change in that value, passed it through P&L. And in Q4, we had the write-up of SEK 9 billion. We have treated it as an item affecting comparability. While the change in value of the land, the SEK 13 billion increase we had in Q4, that goes directly to equity or something called other comprehensive income, OCI. That will also be the case going forward, where we will revalue or increase the value of the trees by every quarter, and that will pass through P&L, while we, at year-end, will look at the -- review the value of the total forest holding and adjusted to the current market prices. The change, the impact of that change will be channeled through the land value through OCI.

On this asset value, we have -- this is a -- when we have valued it, this is what we believe is a post-tax value of the forest holding, the SEK 41 billion, but the accounting recommendation forces us to book a tax -- cost of deferred tax liability on this of 20.8% of the forest land. The -- on the forest value. This is not a tax liability that we will pay. Should we sell any asset, part of our assets, we will most likely be able to sell it without incurring any tax cost.

That was the technical part on forest valuation, Henrik, back to you to businesses stats.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [5]

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I think before we go over to paper, we should also mention that we talked about slightly lower prices in the wood market right now. But if we look at Sweden as such, and long term, we see that most probably lower prices, it's only -- it's for the moment, and we are not able to harvest as much as the growing forest industry is actually consuming in Sweden. So it's an import market, and over time, that would mean that prices has a good chance to increase over time.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [6]

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Which is good if you're a forest owner?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [7]

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Absolutely. We are both.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [8]

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Yes.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [9]

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Okay. Talking about paperboard, a few words about the market. If we look at the markets through 2019 and also a couple of years back, we can see that demand has been quite healthy. And the development through 2019 hasn't been bad either, it's more or less on the same level as in 2018.

What is notable though is that pulp prices, the last year, as you know, it has come down quite substantially. It's actually really, really low at the moment. But if you look at the price level, especially for folding boxboard, which we see here, then we can see that prices are stable. And that's what we have said many times before, prices do not change very fast in this market, nor up, neither down, and that's the situation we have now as well even though it's a tough competition for new business and there's a lot of capacity in the market. Ourselves, we have -- we had a situation, especially second half of 2018, when we were not in balance when it comes to sales and production. And that situation, what we had, it's also in the beginning of 2019, we had to find a better balance, win some new orders, and that has gradually become better during 2019.

And also now at the end of 2019, in quarter 4, it looks like sales are on the low side. But we should remember that in the third quarter, we took down stocks quite a lot, we had maintenance shut, et cetera. So it was not easy for us to deliver actually much more than that because we also had a lot of holidays. People were skiing or doing something else, maybe not skiing without snow. But anyway, the feeling now is much better. The order books are better, and it's not comparable to where we were last year in Q4.

Anders, financials.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [10]

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Yes. As you see on the numbers, the financial performance for the whole of 2019 was pretty lackluster. We -- the profit declined due to more scheduled maintenance stops, but also higher cost for wood and chemicals, although that cost leveled off during the latter part of the year, and actually declined in Q4 somewhat.

We also had some production disturbances and had this imbalance between production and sales, as Henrik mentioned, which of course took a toll on profits especially during the first half of the year.

Looking into Q4, we see a quite good number, SEK 187 million. We had some production -- we lost production and had a high cost of production due to -- when we started up new equipment in the pulp mill. That problem is resolved now. We don't have it right now, but it took a toll on Q4 profit. But it was balanced by a bonus that we received from producing green electricity in Workington in the U.K.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [11]

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Yes. Moving on to paper. We had a couple of years, after many years, actually, we had difficulties to increase prices, but we had a couple of years where we could increase prices, thanks to earlier closures of capacity.

If we look at 2019, we started off with higher prices. And then gradually during the year or in the second half of the year when new business has been negotiated, prices have turned down slightly. And -- but I should say, if we look at our own -- how we performed in the fourth quarter, not much of new pricing have -- we can't see much of it, still in the books. However, when we look into 2020 and where we are right now, we are negotiating new business, and it is price pressure, which is also seen in this chart here.

Ourselves, when it comes to sales levels, we have -- we were in a situation when we came into 2019 when we also had a bit too high stocks. So we have prioritized to take down stock levels to be on a healthy level and in favor instead of trying to fill the machines to any price just to run full. But if you look at where we are right now in the fourth quarter of 2019, also in paper, we are in, I would say, better shape, and especially we had stocks under control.

So what does that mean, Anders, for our financial figures?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [12]

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And 2019 delivered a very good performance, SEK 500 million plus in operating profit, and given quite a low capital employed, very good return on capital employed for the paper business for the second year running. This is an effect of the good pricing development, although we took quite a lot of downtime to stabilize and get the stock situation. And I would say it's in a very good shape as we exited the year. Q4 showed a quite good profit. You saw a decline from Q3 due to seasonal high cost and some more impact from lower selling prices. But so far, we have not had that much of an impact from lower selling prices. The price pressure that is in the market now is something that we will see -- will affect the Q1 result.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [13]

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Correct. Moving on to wood products where we are currently finalizing actually the capacity expansion at our Braviken Sawmill, which we will come back to at the later report.

If we then instead take a look at the market as such, this is really a rollercoaster and, well, we are used to that, being in this business. But the situation we have had during -- after the last year is, of course, affected by the spruce bark beetle infestation in Central Europe, where very high supply of raw material has meant it's been high in production of wood products as well, which has accelerated the price decline.

The situation now, where we are today, is more that there is starting to -- we have a feeling that maybe we have hit the bottom. If you look at Central Europe, there is not so much, at least, of good quality raw material that could be used. But nobody knows what will happen when we come into May, June, when spruce bark beetles might again eat some trees, and they need to be harvest again. We don't know. But at least we are in a situation where I don't think it will get any worse. Hopefully it will get slowly better, but it's too early to say it.

Regardless of that, we have actually increased our deliveries by 6% during -- we have been in a fairly favorable situation being in Sweden, but also we, in Sweden, of course, have been a bit affected by high supply of wood raw material in the south. On the other hand, the raw material cost has not come down as fast as the price of wood products, which is always the problem with the lag and which has an impact on the financial results, which is quite obvious, Anders.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [14]

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Indeed. You see the full year result has dropped quite a lot, SEK 62 million was the final count in operating profit for the year, where we made a loss during the second half of the year due to this quite steep decline in selling prices. Q4, we saw the results stabilizing. Still a loss, slightly less lower figure, but nevertheless, a loss. We increased production, but with control over stock levels, they are at the decent level. We saw a slight decline in selling prices, but that was countered by lower -- low costs.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [15]

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Moving on to something interesting. As I said in the beginning, we have taken a decision to invest SEK 1.3 billion in renewable energy, in wind power. And why do we do that? Well, I think Sweden has a very good opportunity to contribute to the phasing out of fossil fuels in Europe. And as you can see from this chart, just remember that most electricity produced in Europe is actually based still on fossils. And there, the politicians in Europe, they have 2 possibilities to reach the targets they have set for a CO2-neutral society in not actually too long -- too far in the future. That is to the side of our targets, but also it's about the ETS, the emission trading system, where they simply make it more expensive to emit fossil CO2.

And cost for electricity, marginal cost for producing electricity based on fossil fuels. For example, in Germany, has a direct link to the electricity price in Sweden, and Sweden is connected to the rest of Europe through this system we have.

You can see that on this chart, that the correlation is really, really good between, in this case, marginal cost for our cold powered -- coal-fired power plants in Germany and the Swedish electricity price.

For us, at the same time, as we have this development and the idea of Europe being fossil-free in the future, we have a lot of land. We have the expertise. We have the knowledge. I think also, we have the land in the right place. We have a good chance actually to contribute to this and to build wind power on our own land. And we also -- it looks like we have the idea, we believe it's possible to build wind power and make some good money from it.

Most probably we will reach an internal rate of return of -- the idea is roughly 10%. Another good thing with wind power in Sweden is, of course, also that we have talked about the trees standing there, and we've talked about the value of the trees. But the combination of wind power and trees works. It doesn't mean that if you build wind power, you can't harvest the trees. It's a good complement.

So this is the first step. And then we will see where this takes us when we go on when it comes to wind power on our own land.

Back to where we are today when it comes to financials.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [16]

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2019 was a good year. We are almost SEK 340 million. Of course, this includes SEK 80 million gain on selling wind farm permits on our land, but we also enjoyed higher prices, and that the property tax has been reduced another step. Q4 saw a seasonal uptick in earnings due to a combination of higher prices and slightly higher production.

Not much more to say about the energy business from a financial perspective, Henrik.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [17]

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This is the end of tax cuts? Or do we get any more?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [18]

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We get SEK 15 million on an annual basis, lower tax next year -- or this year, 2020, but that's the final step.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [19]

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Thank you. Then time to summarize some priorities going forward. As we said before, we were in a situation where we weren't happy with paperboard and the balance we had. The balance is, today, much better now. It's for us, of course, extremely important to keep the balance and also to improve the efficiency.

And when it comes to paper, also being in a better balance after having taken down stocks also there to see that we can continue to develop new products, new business in order to make the best we can of the fresh fiber we use in order to develop sales in magazine and book paper because the overall demand is declining.

And of course, to manage difficult markets for wood products, even though we might see the light in the tunnel, it's too easy to say something about that yet, but we need to be extremely careful not to go wrong here.

And then we are happy that we have taken the decision to start to invest in wind power with our own money, on our own land. And it's, of course, extremely important to make sure that we do this now within budget, on time, et cetera. We cannot control exactly how much wind is blowing, but rather, not the electricity price either, but this we have in our own hands.

And then just before we leave the words to the audience to get some questions, it's just -- it has changed so much the last few years. And the interest for companies and the possibilities with the forest, and people start to understand that whatever we do with the forest, actually, we contribute to the climate. And that there are so many good things when we have the substitutional effects, we replace concrete and steel with wood products and even board and paper actually makes sense when it replaces plastic. And the possibility to also, in the future, increase our share of renewable energy, not only hydropower, but, as a complement, also to expand in wind, make this story even better.

So thank you very much. And then we are happy to take any questions you might have.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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(Operator Instructions) Our first question comes from the line of Linus Larsson of SEB.

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Linus Larsson, SEB, Research Division - Analyst [2]

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Just curious to understand, you're changing your debt target. Could you just discuss with us what practical implications that might have?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [3]

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Anders?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [4]

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It doesn't have any practical implication at all. Currently, we have a SEK 4 billion net debt. What we're saying now -- and our ambition is to have a strong balance sheet. And that's expressed right now that we shouldn't exceed effectively SEK 10 billion. We're currently at SEK 4 billion at those. We have plenty of room to invest in our business, buy back shares, see if we want to or do other things within that target.

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Linus Larsson, SEB, Research Division - Analyst [5]

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Right. And you mentioned buybacks, you did execute on your buyback mandate during the second half of 2019. Where do we stand on that now?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [6]

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We still do have the mandate activated. As we have had a very strong balance sheet for a number of years, we have not been in a hurry to correct it. We have bought back. We're happy that we've actually bought back 1 point -- shares for SEK 1.4 billion. If timing is right, we are happy to buy back more shares, but we are not in a hurry to execute on such a mandate.

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Linus Larsson, SEB, Research Division - Analyst [7]

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And apart from that, if we talk about capital allocation, you announced one windmill investment late last year. Do you have more potential plans for further investments in wind or something completely different?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [8]

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Yes.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [9]

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No, but we have a lot of land. We have a lot of opportunities, but it takes time to find the right places where we think it makes sense. And then it's also, of course, environmental permits.

But if you look in the pipeline, yes, we have one more where we're waiting for the environmental permit and we expect to have that during next year.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [10]

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During this year, 2020.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [11]

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This year, it's 2020 now, sorry.

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [12]

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And it's also a similar size than the wind farm that we had decided to build.

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Linus Larsson, SEB, Research Division - Analyst [13]

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Great, great. And would that be it? Or do you -- are you looking at some sort of prospects? And like I said, it doesn't have to be wind necessarily, but do you have other prospects for potential investments?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [14]

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Hopefully, that's not it. But if we stick to wind, we believe that, that's logic and it makes sense.

Then, of course, it has to be profitable, that we don't do anything, unless we believe it gives us a good return on invested money.

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Operator [15]

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And our next question comes from the line of Oskar Lindstrom of Danske Bank.

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Oskar Lindstrom, Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Senior Analyst [16]

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I'd like to pick up a little bit where Linus left off on the debt level. And I mean now that you've increased the market or the book value of your forest lands to where the market value is. I mean it should be very apparent that you are very much a forest company that then also owns the industry. I mean in terms of where the value or the majority of the value of the company is. Shouldn't this lead to you also increasing your debt level to get a good, effective yield from the forest lands? Have you had any thoughts around sort of increasing your debt level long term?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [17]

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No. Our ambition has always been to have a strong balance sheet to be able to take decisions irrespective of -- almost irrespective of financing conditions. And where we strive to generate money to our shareholders by running the facilities we have and allocate capital in the best way and not by leveraging up the company.

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Oskar Lindstrom, Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Senior Analyst [18]

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Okay. Should we -- I mean when you say that you want to be independent of financing conditions and sort of be ready to make -- take action independent of those, does that mean that you sort of -- you see opportunities for making big investments or big -- spending big money in the coming years? Or...

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [19]

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You have followed us for quite some time, Oskar. And I would say, for the last 20 years, at least, we've had this kind of -- we have had a strong balance sheet for 20 years. So nothing has changed from that perspective.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [20]

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No.

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Oskar Lindstrom, Danske Bank Markets Equity Research - Senior Analyst [21]

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All right. Just wanted to double check if the higher forest land values have made you changed your thinking a little bit anyway, but okay.

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Operator [22]

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Our next question comes from the line of Robin Santavirta from Carnegie Investment Bank.

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Robin Santavirta, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [23]

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And I hope these questions have not been asked, I wasn't able to enter immediately from the start. But starting off with the graphic paper division or business you have. What is the outlook now for 2020 in terms of the market balance in the segments that you are operating in? And what kind of sort of pricing are we looking at from Q1 forward?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [24]

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I think if you look at the market overall, regardless where you are in publication papers, to different segments, they are connected to each other. Well, it's a demanding outlook when it comes to supply-demand balance. And over time, some machines needs to be closed down. That's clear. But it's, also, we can see quite a big difference between different segments where we are, for example, from book paper at one end to newsprint at the other end. And both pricing and demand development looks quite different.

But we are negotiating right now, so I don't really want to comment on pricing. But as you can see from the statistics, the trend now is down.

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Robin Santavirta, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [25]

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Sure. You're sort of operating in a quite nice niche, that you are being quite successful there, and you sort of do it with wood fiber. What is the reason now for prices sort of in competing rates coming down? Is it the low price of recycled fiber? Or is it simply the supply-demand balance that has weakened?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [26]

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Most of what we do is trying to avoid competing directly with recycled fiber-based products, and that's part of our ambition, and we offer something different, but nobody goes free from the competition we see in the market right now. That's clear. And customers normally have opportunities to switch from one quality to the other if they are really under pressure.

But we -- as I said before, we see potential in this market when it comes to, again, working with product development and gaining better prices by actually selling to different customers. But it's not easy, but it's not undoable. But we are also affected by the price trend we see now. Nobody goes free.

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Robin Santavirta, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [27]

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All right. I understand. And in terms of the paperboard market, there's a bit of difference, what the view is out in the market. So you can see from some of the trade journals, that folding boxboard and SBS prices, apparently, sort of for a lot of companies are now declining this year a bit if not much, but a bit. Again, you operate in a little bit different kind of niche markets, with the upper scales of the products. So how should we sort of expect your pricing to develop now going into 2020 and maybe '21 as well?

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [28]

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I think, again, you're on the right track when you say that we are in segments where it's tough competition. It's always tough competition from beneath. But if you look at statistics here again, and what we feel is that prices are fairly stable. But for new business, and if you come down in slightly lower segments, I guess, it's fierce competition. And we try to avoid that by having such good quality that we sell to customers where price is not everything.

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Robin Santavirta, Carnegie Investment Bank AB, Research Division - Financial Analyst [29]

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Okay, I understand. And then finally, just only related to the capital allocation discussion. What is sort of the prospect for you guys buying [physicals] sort of for forest land and just increase the forest assets on one hand, or then -- so the goal for growth to, for example, investments or M&A? Are any of those, at all, in your interest?

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Anders Jernhall, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - Executive VP & CFO [30]

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We always -- we scan the market for forest properties. We buy when we find that the price is right, and we sell some as well that doesn't fit our portfolio. But it's very small changes. It's very difficult to get over and buy larger properties.

Then our focus is to reinvest in our industry. We are committed to the facilities we have. We think they are quite good. They're in good shape and have good positions. So our focus is to reinvest and keep them in a very good shape.

And what we do now is expanding the energy business. We feel that it's an attractive risk reward, it's right in time, and we feel that that's where we allocate our excess capital right now, in building wind farms.

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Operator [31]

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(Operator Instructions) Okay. There seems to be no further questions coming through. I'll hand back to our speakers for the closing comments.

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Henrik Sjölund, Holmen Aktiebolag (publ.) - President, CEO & Director [32]

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Okay. Thank you very much. I think we are really impressed. We thought that this -- at this time of the day, you must be totally exhausted, but relevant questions. Thank you very much. Have a nice day or evening.