U.S. Markets open in 3 hrs 6 mins

Edited Transcript of KNIN.S earnings conference call or presentation 22-Oct-19 12:00pm GMT

Q3 2019 Kuehne und Nagel International AG Earnings Call

Schindellegi Oct 24, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Kuehne und Nagel International AG earnings conference call or presentation Tuesday, October 22, 2019 at 12:00:00pm GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

================================================================================

Corporate Participants

================================================================================

* Detlef A. Trefzger

Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO

* Markus Blanka-Graff

Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board

================================================================================

Conference Call Participants

================================================================================

* Chi Onn Chu

Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Christian Obst

Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst

* Damian Brewer

RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division - Analyst

* Daniel Roeska

Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., LLC., Research Division - Research Analyst

* Mark John McVicar

Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - Head of European Transportation Research

* Samuel James Bland

JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Sathish Babu Sivakumar

Citigroup Inc, Research Division - Analyst

* Sebastian Vogel

UBS Investment Bank, Research Division - Director & Sell Side Equity Research Analyst

* Tobias Sittig

MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - Head of Equity Research Germany & Senior Equity Analyst

================================================================================

Presentation

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Q3 2019 results conference call. I'm Andrzej, the Chorus Call operator.

(Operator Instructions) And the conference is being recorded. (Operator Instructions) The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast.

At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Dr. Detlef Trefzger, CEO of Kuehne + Nagel. Please go ahead, sir.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks, Andrzej. Good morning, good day, good afternoon and good evening to all of you, and welcome to the Kuehne + Nagel analyst conference call on the 9 months 2019 results.

We published our results this morning and also the analyst presentation earlier today. And as always, our CFO, Markus Blanka-Graff; and I will lead you through the presentation. And let's get started on Slide 3.

In the first 9 months of 2019, this year, our results greatly improved and especially in the last quarter. We closed the first 9 months with group earnings at CHF 598 million. Our earnings per share grew -- growth accelerated, and the free cash flow improved further. In addition, our conversion rate improved to 14.3% as well. This was due to a strong EBIT development in seafreight of CHF 357 million in total, which resulted into CHF 33 million above last year's first 9 months period; a very satisfactory EBIT in airfreight of CHF 263 million despite reduced volumes but a solid performance in quarter 3 with EBIT on previous year's level. In overland, the net turnover grew by 2% and a strong operational improvement led to an EBIT improvement especially in quarter 3. And also, contract logistics improved its EBIT operationally by CHF 7 million, excluding the one-off profits from sale of real estate. And here we saw the first signs of the restructuring activities and initiatives getting traction.

Let's continue on Slide 4 of the slide deck very briefly. Despite a challenging market environment, and we have spoken about that in detail when we had our analyst meetings the last -- during the last couple of months, we increased net turnover, gross profit, EBIT and earnings per share. And the figures on Slide 4 speak for themselves. I think I don't need to go into more details at the moment. Therefore, let's continue on the 2 network businesses, seafreight and airfreight, on Slide 5.

Seafreight, our selective growth strategy, with a volume growth of plus 4.3% year-to-date, got -- or showed traction. We have a very strong focus on customer service, as you know. And especially for the small- and medium-sized enterprises, we got a lot of traction with establishing a very unique service proposition for that. Our cargo mix as well as strict cost control, a part of the Kuehne + Nagel DNA as you all know, just the small and medium size -- growth with small- and medium-sized enterprises drove the conversion rate up in seafreight.

Airfreight. The airfreight market continued to be under pressure. Especially automotive and the high-tech sector showed significant volume declines, while we were able to grow and saw growth in the pharma, health care as well as the perishables and the time-critical sectors. Our organic gross profit development remains robust, though, and we were able to fight the market conditions quite well.

Let's go through the details of sea and airfreight volume development on Slide 6 of the slide deck. Also in seafreight we saw a slight deceleration of the market in quarter 3, not really significant but not to be not mentioned. Therefore, we reduced the guidance slightly to 1% to 2% for the market but not for Kuehne + Nagel. Our growth and our ambition to outperform markets 2x as much as market growth remains. We have seen in the first 9 months a growth of 4.3% in seafreight or year-to-date additional volume in our seafreight network of 152,000 TEU. Where did the growth come from? Clearly, transatlantic; eastbound, partly westbound but mainly eastbound; Asia imports, especially from Europe; and Asia exports to North America. What we clearly saw to be weaker as a consequence of all those trade wars and noises and discussions and ongoing disputes was the Asia imports from the U.S. The energy and the projects business as well as reefer and less-container load contributed strongly to growth and gross profit development.

The airfreight market, contracting for the last 9 months or even longer, as you know. The market volume continued to deteriorate, and there was no meaningful change in quarter 3 versus quarter 2. Volume pressure still exists within automotive and high tech, I mentioned that before, while we see pockets of growth in pharma, aviation, health care and also e-commerce fulfillment. The trade lanes where we see relative better volume growth is U.S., North America to Europe; and exports from Europe to Asia; but a weaker Asia export on the transpac. I mentioned that briefly before.

Let's continue on the unit performance for both business units, Slide 7.

We saw in seafreight an increased unit profit versus previous year quarter 3 of CHF 95 per TEU versus CHF 92 per TEU. This was driven by our selective growth, which I mentioned before; the cargo mix, more reefer and LCL business in our network; and the sequential reduction of our costs, especially in quarter 3. Also here, as in all business units, our cost and productivity programs showed first signs of traction. We have mentioned those programs, by the way, when we posted our annual results 2018; and our call, I think, end of February this year. And we see now first time in quarter 3 that all those measures that we have initiated and implemented got traction. We are focusing also in seafreight on leveraging our IT solutions. We have implemented a couple of platforms, you are aware of those, automation; and also they had to drive not only volume growth but also productivity.

As always -- and Markus will give some more details, but as always, I would like to share our year-to-date variance analysis with you in million Swiss francs. From a gross profit perspective, the volume effect in seafreight contributed to CHF 48 million more. The margin effects contributed to CHF 9 million more year-to-date, first 9 months. Additional costs through the volume effects contributes to CHF 24 million higher costs, in total an EBIT improvement or resulting into an EBIT improvement of CHF 33 million more.

Next slide, Slide 8. Let's go to the unit development in airfreight. And you see that unit margins and profits in airfreight also improved year-over-year. The margins in airfreight improved. So the gross profit per 100 kilo improved by 16% year-over-year, with 2/3 of this improvement being organic; and 1/3 attributable to the Quick acquisition, our time-critical business that we acquired end of last year. The EBIT per 100 kilo improved year-over-year by 10% or CHF 2 per 100 kilo, which is directly attributable to the Quick acquisition. And you see that the contribution of Quick is accelerating. And all the figures that you see are after our intangible -- amortization of intangibles, which we usually apply for acquisitions.

Also here in airfreight, the year-to-date variance analysis, CHF 1 million, if you may. On the gross profit side, the volume effects contributed to CHF 57 million less GP in airfreight this year. The margin effect, though, contributed to CHF 159 million additional GP. Cost effect of CHF 110 million negatively and an EBIT that was almost flat or minus CHF 8 million year-to-date in our books.

So this is the short overview on sea and airfreight. Let me continue with our overland business on Slide 9. A very strong performance of the European network continued, although also here in overland we saw a certain slowdown or less growth in quarter 3. And the digital platform that we launched in Asia, in 2 markets already in Asia, showed traction already in overland and especially in those markets where our footprint is rather new and unique.

The strong operational performance -- and I'm moving on to Slide 10 of the slide deck now. The strong operational performance of overland continued in quarter 3, especially year-over-year. And the question is why is that happening, as globally the volumes do not grow significantly anymore. And -- but gross profit improved due to our improved capacity management. So capacity management is one answer to why are we continuing to be successful, but also the U.S. [PLM] business performed very strong, while, and we have mentioned that already in our last call, intermodal volumes were down by 10% year-over-year in the U.S. The European groupage and LTL business is resilient at the moment and performs well. And as with all other businesses, our pharma solutions saw a lot of traction and grows continuously.

The overall performance you see on Slide 10 compared on -- in the chart on the bottom of that slide. So CHF 17 million EBIT per quarter 3 -- generated in quarter 3 versus CHF 14 million last year quarter 3 and CHF 7 million in quarter 3 2017. So a strong and continuous improvement in the operational performance of overland -- of the overland business.

I would like to also point out, next slide, Kuehne + Nagel remains active in bolt-on acquisitions, and we very often get questions on acquisitions, but also is active in the M&A market, as you all know. Our recent example is the JÖBSTL acquisition, and I'm looking forward to exchanging some details on that acquisition with you on Slide 12. JÖBSTL is a family-owned forwarding business, mainly overland business, established 95 years ago in Southern Austria, serving the Austrian market -- or Eastern and Southern Austrian market as well as Eastern Europe, with a high cultural fit with Kuehne + Nagel. And we have a continuation of our network expansion in Europe ongoing, and JÖBSTL is a perfect fit for us. The acquisition became effective in September, as you can see. And it's mainly international and domestic groupage business that JÖBSTL is pursuing, and that now will be fully integrated into our own networks.

With a revenue of CHF 70 million, approximately 550,000 shipments per year and 180 employees employed in 5 or 6 locations in Austria and Slovenia, JÖBSTL has been very successful. And I heartily welcome all our new colleagues from the JÖBSTL group; and look forwards to blending strengths and customer proximity, especially with small- and medium-size customers.

Contract logistics, on Slides 13 and 14. We have mentioned that, for the last quarterly review calls or analyst calls, we focus on restructuring and cost management very strongly. And we also continue to review our real estate portfolio. Having said so, Slide 14, and I mentioned that in the beginning, our restructuring of the contract logistics portfolio yielded first results. We are really happy to see that in quarter 3 operationally. We were able to improve our net profit again in contract logistics. The contract logistics restructuring includes the review of the entire contract portfolio with a clear focus on scaling high-margin solutions, especially those that have cross-selling effects or that of interest for our other business units like pharma, aerospace, e-commerce fulfillment; the discontinuation of unattractive businesses, especially those which do not fulfill the requirement of being scalable as such, which are isolated to certain markets. And this discontinuation will eventually result into slower growth of that business unit. We have mentioned that. And continued review of our real estate portfolio, also an exercise that has been ongoing for a couple of years. I would even say that we continuously look into where are locations that we want to continue business with and where are locations that eventually are not needed anymore due to consolidation.

Our contract logistics EBIT improved operationally by CHF 7 million, excluding the one-off profits from sale of real estate. And as mentioned, slower growth and operational improvements shall continue in the next quarter. So this exercise of restructuring in contract logistics will continue. That growth is slowing down. You can see in the table that is shown on Slide 14. So while we show a net turnover growth of 5.1% and a gross profit improvement of 4.9%, respectively, these figures were 5.7% and 5.2% last quarter, so quarter 2; and 6.7% and 6.8% gross profit growth, respectively, in quarter 1. So it's a clear slowdown before any effects of currency or acquisitions can be noted, while the EBIT is improving operationally to the set level before.

One additional remark on contract logistics. The idle space, through all our restructuring activities, reduced to a historic low level of 2.8%. And we will continue to focus on consolidation, restructuring and ensuring that our -- the space that we provide is fully utilized.

And with this statement on contract logistics, I'm happy to hand over to Markus, our CFO, will give you the details on the 9 months 2019 results.

Markus?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you, Detlef. And welcome, ladies and gentlemen, also from my side.

I'm on Page #15 of the presentation, and everybody who has been participating on the call knows that it's one of my preferred pages. I'm glad that we see in Q3 2019, the first time, what I call some leverage of the operation, some leverage effect positively. And I think we have seen a turning point in the group conversion rate. So we can say, and I hope we continue to see that through the quarters to come, that we are on our way to the 16% conversion rate that we have been targeting and still target for the year, 2022. And as we have heard from Detlef, the markets were not heavily supportive in the third quarter. However, our results have greatly improved.

So as you can see from our disclosures in the information deck, there is a one-off gain of real estate to the amount of CHF 22 million within the numbers. Usually, we have not disclosed any one-off item for a simple reason, because we are of the opinion that a reshaping of a footprint that predominantly is being used for contract logistics is something that is pertaining to an ongoing business development. So hence, you will find and you have found also in the past quite regularly items like those in the P&L. At the same time, which was a positive effect on the real estate side, we also have to consider that the 9 months result contain negative impact from an exchange rate to the amount of around CHF 21 million on the EBT line. Again, we never mention that specifically. We never point out numbers. Just to show you that we have to live with exchange rate as much as we have to manage our footprint within the real estate actively. Coincidentally, if you like, these numbers are very close to each other, so however we look into one-offs or not one-offs, the fact remains, I think, the third quarter has been self-helped through cost control, very little support from the market result that have marked a turning point in our journey towards the 2016 target.

On the back of that, let's go forward to the Page #16, the balance sheet, 2 items that I point out regularly, impact of IFRS 16, so right-of-use assets and long-term lease liabilities and currently it's liabilities. We have added around CHF 1.7 billion onto the balance sheet, which is now standing at a total value of the balance sheet of around CHF 10 billion. At the same time, I want to talk about -- 2 pages from now about the cash flow development, which obviously has not only high interest from the outside world but also high interest from ourselves, managing working capital as much as managing free cash flow.

Page #17, on the impact IFRS 16, no changes to the numbers that we have been publishing in the past, with one exception you will see on the right side of the slide. You will see the SG&A expenses have been previously slightly estimated below the number that we are seeing now. We are now seeing around CHF 490 million to CHF 510 million. That was before a little bit lower on an EBIT and profit before tax, so EBT level, there is no change. The brackets, we have now a bit made smaller because obviously we know better now what's going to be the estimated outcome for 2019. You see there we have a negative impact from the IFRS 16 adoption in the year 2019 and EBT level between minus CHF 5 million and CHF 10 million, and that is clearly to the vast majority in contract logistics.

Tangible common equity, something I -- as you know, I like to look at because for me it's one of the indicators how equity develops against potential goodwill -- or against goodwill and what is the residual value to it. I would expect with the enlarged balance sheet -- let's not forget that December 31 is still the balance sheet that is without the adoption of IFRS 16, so we would expect a tangible common equity ratio at year-end above 10%, so around CHF 1.2 billion.

Cash and cash equivalents. I think also in our morning fact sheet we have pointed out that free cash flow has greatly improved compared to last year. I only want to point out 3 drivers, if you like, 2 that are marked here on the Slide #18. We have a high operational cash flow, so yes, because we are making more profit. And we have, the bigger part to it, the working capital improvement of around CHF 250 million. Since I know in our conversations around contract logistics restructuring and reshaping business, I want to point out that, at the current stage in Q3 or until Q3 2019, there has only been very little impact yet on the cash flow from our changes in the contract logistics area. That is still -- from a cash flow perspective, that is still going to come in the next 18 months so that we will see then an additional positive impact.

Free cash flow development, Page #19. I think the graph is self-explanatory. We do have an -- a very good free cash flow development since beginning, if you like, Q1. I'm very glad that there is sustainable improvement from the working capital management. And we will see, being asked that question already once or twice today and a couple of times also in the second quarter, how the trajectory of that line is going to be. And it's very clear the fourth quarter always has been cash generating, and I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case, so I think we can comfortably expect that there is a dividend coverage out of the free cash flow 2019.

Working capital, Page #20, a couple of details around what I have been mentioning already. So we are running comfortably in our 4.1 -- or in our self-set, let's say, corridor between 3.5% and 4.5% working capital intensity. 4.1% is the current situation. Quite remarkable, if you compared it to December year-end close position which is normally a quite favorable position, that also during the year we can reach that level.

Return on capital employed, Page #21. And let's remind ourselves we have here 2 graphs. The top graph is excluding the acquisition impact. The lower one is including the acquisition impact. Also, JÖBSTL is -- [that is also limited to the] consolidated as per the 10th of September 2019, so coming across with the balance sheet but not coming across with a lot of P&L as of yet. So you see the difference between these 2 lines is making that impact. Looking forward, in the fourth quarter 2019, we will still have that gap in the way we disclose these 2 numbers. When we start and into the first quarter 2020 and going forward, obviously these acquisition impacts, at least for Quick and Sincero, will start to fade away.

Financial targets. Again looking at conversion rate, we are now at the level of 13.3% on a year-to-date basis for the group. In the quarter, we have achieved a 14.3% conversion rate, so when we look into the run rate of that KPI, I think we should be looking forward at something above what is the current year-to-date number.

Assumptions for our targets, again only as a reminder for modeling the long-term impact until 2022. We always said conversion rate target is based on a business unit mix that have been in effect 2016. Of course, you know that the -- both business units overland and contract logistics would be diluting the conversion rate if they were to grow exponentially. We talk about stable macroeconomic environment, whatever that means in our new world, if you like. I don't know what stable means anymore but at least without any huge disruption. And we would not have considered acquisitions into this target.

I think -- when we look at CapEx. That is the last topic that we usually talk about, also in the Q&A section. You will see here now currently at 250 million -- CHF 246 million in CapEx, so we would expect that year-end CHF 280 million to CHF 300 million mark to be there, which is not significantly reduced yet compared to last year because the reshaping of contract logistics has really not taken a lot of effect on the CapEx side.

Outlook. We have seen a couple of notes already around today. You have all seen that in seafreight we have reduced the market outlook for 2019 from around 2% to 1% to 2%. We still remain confident that we can outperform that market by a factor of 2. Also, in the third quarter -- if I may just give that little detail, also in the third quarter we have added 49,000 TEUs to our volume, which was even 13,000 TEU more than in the second quarter 2019. So despite the fact that there is a slowdown, there is still an ability of the organization to gain market share. Airfreight, also on this side we have taken down a little bit the market outlook, just to reflect the development in the third quarter that we have seen, to minus 5% to minus 6%. And to be perfectly honest, in a market that is going backwards to the extent that we are expecting right now, I think we are probably somewhere in line with market, which we can manage.

Overland and contract logistics, they are both in more domestic market conditions. We both see the market at around 2% to 3%, whereby in overland our aim is clearly to outperform the market. And in contract logistics, due to the reshaping of the organization, as a net impact we will be in line with market. And focus on the growth areas that we have selected.

Before I hand over to the operator, Andrzej, I would like to point out that we have now published a stat book. So a book for the statistical values that you can download from our homepage. I think that should most likely make some of the modeling a little bit easier for you and also look into some of the historic data.

With that more technical comment, I would like to hand back to Andrzej and open the Q&A session.

================================================================================

Questions and Answers

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Operator Instructions) The first question comes from the line of Sivakumar, Sathish from Citi.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sathish Babu Sivakumar, Citigroup Inc, Research Division - Analyst [2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have two. Firstly, on the improvement in working capital. Out of the CHF 250 million improvement we have seen in 2019 versus 2018, it will be a bit helpful if you could give me the split or the mix effect due to the scale down in contract logistics versus the decline in volumes in airfreight; and the measures that you have taken, like taking a better concept to your suppliers. And secondly, what is your optimal net debt-to-EBITDA ratio prior to any major acquisitions that you would like to target?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. Sathish, sorry that I tried to interrupt you in that question. I think, in all fairness, this is a level of detail that we can discuss off-line.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Damian Brewer from RBC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damian Brewer, RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division - Analyst [5]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two question areas from me. First of all, contract logistics. Given you mentioned there's just 2.8% idle space in the business at the moment, could you give us an update on sort of what the surplus real estate potential of that business is? And then secondly, and it probably ties into it, of the contract mix at the end of Q3, what proportion was sort of either 0 or minimal contribution and therefore potentially would release further real estate in the future? I'm just trying to get a feeling of how much capital could flow into the business in cash as real estate comes out. And then secondly, on the air business, clearly you can't see it for Q4, but are you seeing any signs from your customers that the continual decline in that market would come to an end? Or does it seem, given the forward-looking or limited forward-looking nature of that business, there's no end in sight to the decline?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [6]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right. Damian, Detlef speaking. Let me answer your contract logistics questions first. The review of the real estate portfolio is almost independent of the restructuring and operational review of all the contracts in our portfolio. We regularly look for what is real estate we need to have in our network in order to stay close to markets, to customers and to fulfill the growth ambition that we still have in contract logistics. This review, to come back to your question, is not related to lower-margin business, yes. So these are 2 separate sector. We optimize the real estate portfolio under real estate conditions. And we partly lease back if we need decide for another couple of years, but we want to free up our assets on the balance sheet for real estate that is not mission critical or important for our future development in contract logistics. The review, it's normal, as Markus has said. And we will see those disposals happening in the next quarters as well, yes. I think I made a statement that, by summer next year, maybe the majority of all those real estate and portfolio adjustments should have been done, but you will always find a site or a location that doesn't need to continue as owned real estate in our portfolio. Secondly, the contribution of the -- or the mix of the lower- versus higher-margin business is something we usually do not disclose. And I will not disclose it now, but it's we know all our contracts. We know exactly the contractual terms. We know the margin. We know a scope creep effect. We know what requirements customers have, where we can scale a solution with that customer. And we are in open dialogues with those customers. And when it comes to renewal, we would usually either ask for price adjustments to show a minimum margin that we are looking at or for a discontinuation but in a spirit of open communication and understanding of each other's positions. So that would be my review here. And obviously it's not the majority of the contracts, but there are still contracts in our portfolio that do not meet our future requirements of a high-end, fully integrated contract logistics contract portfolio.

Airfreight, our outlook, yes. The question is how big is your glass bowl versus my glass bowl and can we find a mutual understanding. At the moment, I will say the decline will not stop this year, and neither the next 2 quarters or the first 2 quarters in 2020. So there is no major change at the moment. So I would assume that, next year, we might have a flat market versus 2019, while the current trend in airfreight is not really changing. So we would need some impulse and some momentum generated from GDP development, trade growth again that would ask for a higher proportion of airfreight, which is more costly, as you know, yes. So that is my reading, yes. What happens then in 2021 and following years, we will see, too early to say, but -- and I would like to remind all of us once more, last year, 2018, was an exceptional year. We saw growth in our network of 20% and more organically, which is also not normal. Remember, when we had calls in '16, '17, we discussed 2% growth of the market; and 4%, 5% for Kuehne + Nagel as being the normal situation. So obviously markets have to rebalance again, and that is for sure also a reflection of all the trade discussions and trade noise that are ongoing. I hope that -- Damian, I hope that answers your question.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damian Brewer, RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division - Analyst [7]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. Can I just -- almost. Just a follow-up on one thing. There's always another question. On the contract logistics...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [8]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We know you, Damian.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damian Brewer, RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division - Analyst [9]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, seems to be. On your -- the way you've remarked historically about the kind of margins you'd like to get and where you are now. One can sort of try and back-solve it, and it suggests somewhere between sort of 10% and 20% of contract logistics as either low or minimal contribution. Would you push back against that estimate or just choose not to comment on it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [10]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, I would rather choose not to comment on this, but it's for sure a figure that is rather -- it's -- I would not comment on it. I stop here, but each and every comment would give you a hint.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [11]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Daniel Roeska from Bernstein Research.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daniel Roeska, Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., LLC., Research Division - Research Analyst [12]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe first of all, looking at the softer outlook for growth, is there an opportunity to reduce some OpEx by taking out overhead or organizational layers in the regions? And if you're considering any kind of changes in your layers or the way you organize the business, can you share some details and targets around this? And secondly and some comments around what you're seeing in the market given the consolidation in the market, kind of how you see the risks, the balance of risks and opportunity given the recent merger. And how your -- how competitors are behaving towards winter, maybe also if there is a difference between the behavior on sea and on air? And then thirdly, a longer-term question, probably for Markus, because -- if you're reducing your contract logistics exposure right now, isn't there potential to think about the different ROCE targets in '22? Given that you kind of already hinted on the slide that it's a constant business mix for the targets slide you have. Or if you're changing the contract logistics business to being slightly a smaller portion of the group, would that consequently imply that there is upside to the ROCE targets?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [13]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right. So Daniel, let me answer the organizational question, which is really interesting because we always review our organizational setup. And as we have said, I think, in the quarter 1 call or when we posted our annual results 2018, we clearly stated we will review the setup not only of regions but also countries, as we have added more than 30,000 jobs, including temporary labor, to the organization over the last 5 years. So we want to reduce administration and layers wherever and -- wherever possible in order to ease up decision taking, but that is not reflecting a macroeconomic environment. That's a part of the Kuehne + Nagel continuous fitness program to have an organization as lean as possible with the metrics we operate in very successfully. Risk and opportunities, there are always risks and opportunities at the moment. I would say, at the moment, I wouldn't see any specific behavior of competitors that would lead me to any statement, to be honest, yes. We concentrate on our customers. We concentrate on winning that business that is of interest to us, especially with those customers and those industries that are up-trading or that are successful in their respective space. And with regards to recent mergers, I mean, the markets are extremely fragmented. And our market share is only 2.5% and we are second largest player in the industry, so there is enough room for us to grow. And as we have said many times, especially in the small- and medium-sized sector and enterprise, we race not against the major 3PLs or logistics companies but more against the local heroes, the specialists, the [trading] specialists. And here we are successful because our technology, our connectivity seems to offer benefits to our customers. And then there was a question for you...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [14]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So -- yes. I think, Daniel, from a target perspective, yes, you're right. When proportionally contract logistics would take a smaller part in the entire pie of the business unit mix, the targets would move upwards. And however, I think, on the target 2022, when we look at what restructuring of a business unit means, reshaping means, we have not said we step away from contract logistics. We have never. That was never the intention to do that. There's an integral part of our business. It is about doing the right things, right? And in that context, when you look into -- we are basically, in 90 days, in 2020. And until everything is being done, we are probably in the back-end of 2021. So yes, there might be a minimal impact towards that overall group conversion rate target, but it would be fair to assume, if we were to give another 5 years target from 2022, let's say, until 2027, I think you're absolutely on the right side to expect a higher conversion rate [on].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daniel Roeska, Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., LLC., Research Division - Research Analyst [15]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And could I kind of try and get another answer out of Detlef for the first question? Because you said you're always looking at things, which of course is well warranted, but are there any specific decisions you'd call out that we could expect to have some impact? Or is this more of going on business as usual in terms of your organizational review? Or have there been any kind of conclusions from that, so far?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [16]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. No, Daniel. No specific decisions that need to be mentioned here, but the overall productivity improvement and less SGA costs within the overall cost pattern is what you should expect relative to GP development or turnover development. And that is what we are looking at.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [17]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Tobias Sittig from MainFirst.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tobias Sittig, MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - Head of Equity Research Germany & Senior Equity Analyst [18]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Three for me, please. Firstly, on the cost and productivity development on seafreight side. It's quite unusual to see you basically reducing operating costs quarter-over-quarter from Q2 to Q3, in the peak season quarter, so maybe can you elaborate whether you did any particular cost-reduction measures? Or what drove the productivity gains that we see when we compare Q3 to Q2 there? Secondly, on the real estate disposals, could you give us a little bit more granularity on the time line and magnitude of the disposals that you're planning for the next couple of quarters and how that will impact 2020 and when that will have ended? And thirdly, just a technicality, but on the overland side you have -- you report 6% growth in turnover but only minus 1% in net turnover. It's, I suppose, the other way around in Q2. Can you just explain what's driving the different pattern there?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [19]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. Tobias, let me answer your OpEx cost per TEU question. And I think I mentioned that when I went through Slide 7, I think it was. And it's a mix of cost activities. It's a mix of productivity gains also through platforms. We have customers that have onboarded with us on a platform directly and do business transactions semi-automated, so to say, already. And it's a mix of a business growth in less-container load as well as in reefer, which structurally have different cost patterns and such. So I will say all these together relates to that effect that you see in the -- for Slide 7, with CHF 211 per TEU shipped. And our operating systems in airfreight are new. In seafreight, we are still preparing for the rollout of SeaLOG, which will start in a year or 8 months from now, as you know. So -- and these productivity gains have not yet been incorporated, but that is what we are driving with our new operating systems that gear for productivity wins in the way we operate our business.

Your second question on real estate. On average I would say we own less than 10%. I think it's 8.5% or so, if I'm not mistaken, of our -- of the real estate we operate in or that we make use of. And out of this, we constantly review locations. So there is no plan to reduce by X percent or something at the moment. There is only -- there are locations that we have identified that do not fit to our future growth ambition, especially sector growth versus location. So sector meaning -- you know we grow fast in e-commerce fulfillment and pharma chain solutions, also in contract logistics, so we are very interested in pharma sites. We are interested in e-commerce fulfillment sites as well as semi-automated sites, while the classical [pallet in, pallet outside a site], and forgive me for that wording, it's not really strategic for us anymore. And therefore, we look at those sites. If we can make a good deal and can sell it for a decent price, we will do so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tobias Sittig, MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - Head of Equity Research Germany & Senior Equity Analyst [20]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Larger] portfolio of assets that you now consider to divest over the next 12 to 18 months, that's not the case?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [21]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely, no. We look at the whole portfolio, whether it's large or small. It depends on market conditions and opportunities, but we look at the entire real estate portfolio at the moment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tobias Sittig, MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - Head of Equity Research Germany & Senior Equity Analyst [22]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [23]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And Tobias, then last question, the overland. The answer is very benign. It has nothing to do -- don't read anything into it. Let me put it that way. There is -- no. It's like more or less customs clearance, obviously, but because that is the difference between turnover and net turnover, I wouldn't -- there is no pattern, nothing to interpret on this one. It's purely, let's say, there is more or less customs clearance. The turnover development obviously has 2 effects. On the one side, there is margins. On the other side, there is -- sorry, there's rates. On the other side, there is volume. And we have obviously different shifts what is the development in Europe versus the U.S. So that is -- from a turnover development, that this explainable. The customs duties piece of it is really a -- more like a customer-driven rather than "from our side managed" number.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [24]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Christian Obst from Baader Bank.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian Obst, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [25]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, coming back to the working capital. Given the set of very good developments you have shown in Q3, is there any chance that you can read some kind of working capital intensity below 4% going forward and that you must lower maybe your range there as you are working to free more capital going forward and working on that? Second one is the main reason -- can you give us the main reason how you gain seafreight volume? Is it price? Is it quality? And is -- the average margin of the new business you are generating, is that above the average level? And would you exclude any new contracts below that level? Or how is the policies there? And do you see any special developments for the current Christmas season? Is there some kind of special building up or reducing of stocks?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [26]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right, Christian, let me take the question on working capital. Yes, working capital is a delicate matter, if you like, because working capital is also a function of business growth. So yes, we can drive working capital below 4%. Our range is between 3.5% and 4%, but I would not make that as a singular target. And I don't want to say, yes, we want to go to 3% working capital or 2.5% working capital because it kind of suffocates the development opportunity of the business. So 3.5% to 4.5% was our target that works in combination with the growth ambitions that the company has and the fluctuations that are from volume and rate growth. Because you know, when rates go down, obviously the functions work to the extent that working capital intensity is impacted also by a 3-month rolling turnover number, right? So I would think, at the current stage, I would feel comfortable that we are somewhere right in the middle or maybe, and forgive me that I'm not going to estimate right now, on the 0.1 percentage but in the 4%, maybe a bit below, range at year-end. But we would like to keep our capabilities to grow in the markets as well through taking on additional volume.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [27]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right. Then the other 2 questions, Christian. The -- I start with the Christmas season or peak season. And first of all, at the moment, and that's true for sea as well as airfreight, there is no peak season to be seen that we need to speak about. Yes, we see a seasonal pattern. And we always see a seasonal pattern in September, October and November but nothing that would allude to any special hint or remark at the moment, yes.

We -- the way we gain business, you asked for seafreight, but I would like to answer in general first and then for seafreight specifically, if you allow. The -- we gain business because our solutions are superior. Our quality of executing the business is seen as a benefit for our customers. We never run business purely on price. That is not, has not been our style and is not the style of our market approach. In seafreight, the margin has not changed, so what we win is in line with the margins that you have seen, especially as we are focusing on small- and medium-sized enterprise and continue to focus on those. Delivering then on those businesses that we have won, that's the key to success. And that is our customer excellence programs that have been implemented, and they show traction. So from that point of view, I would say we win business at decent margins comparable to the figures that you've seen and then retain that business and evolve with the customers further. That is true for all business units sea, airfreight and also overland, so the network businesses. In airfreight, we have not lost major business, I would also like to point out, in the past quarters, but we have customers that are down trading given their market has changed or their customer's demand has changed. So therefore, we are quite confident that our market approach and the way we position our solutions and our network competence in the market is successful. And it depends on the overall development of the customers, of our customers, whether the growth has been 2%, 3%, 4%, 6%, 8% or 10% or whatever percent, yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian Obst, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [28]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. One additional question on SG&A expenses. So we have seen an ongoing downward trend through the 3 quarters now, coming from CHF 360 million, CHF 345 million and now CHF 362 million (sic) [CHF 326 million]. Is there some kind of a natural end where we -- where this decline will or must stop, more or less? Or are you able to lower these costs further going down?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [29]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We aim at lowering those costs further down. We have mentioned our operating systems. And eventually, with eTouch, the incremental costs for a shipment through -- and additional shipment in our system will be, and I'm not exaggerating, close to 0, yes. So from that point of view, we aim at driving those costs down. When will that happen? And is that really then for the mass of the shipments becoming a reality? We will see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian Obst, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [30]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. Because it's an interesting development. It's more or less CHF 20 million per quarter now coming down.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [31]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian, that's the figure. That's the fact. And as just said, we focus on optimizing both the market side with volume growth, as said, and optimizing costs and not only this year. We do this for years, and it takes time to show the effects in the P&L. So you see the first effects of all our programs now on the P&L.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [32]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Mark McVicar from Barclays.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark John McVicar, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - Head of European Transportation Research [33]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two sort of follow-up questions really. First of all, within the 16% conversion ratio target for 2022, do you have in your mind that there will be any significant contribution from the disposal proceeds at that point? Or will the main bulk of the restructuring have been done by then, so we should think of that as an absolutely clean number, same target?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [34]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to answer directly. We -- or you want -- no. That has nothing to do with our one-off gains from real estate disposal or other restructuring effects. Our target is in the mix, I think we mentioned this a couple of times, of our 2017 business unit contribution. And that is the basis for our 16% conversion rate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark John McVicar, Barclays Bank PLC, Research Division - Head of European Transportation Research [35]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. And then one follow-up on working capital just apart from the short-term math. You seem more comfortable with the working capital pressures out there than you probably did 12 months ago or 18 months ago. I mean, do you think that some of the pressure on debtor days and things like that have eased a bit from the customer side? Or is it just that you got better at managing it and getting paid on time?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [36]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think to working capital, as you know, there is always 2 sides. There is the customer side and also the supplier side. I think we have been starting quite a while ago, when we talk about a couple of years actually, to set up various supply chain finance programs or the likes. And I think that has taken on more and more volume and also significant volume. I think the management or the improvement on the working capital is far more driven from that side; and also, and I guess that is an industry topic, accuracy of billing. You usually don't talk about it, but accuracy of billing is something that can be a very low number, a very high number. The effect of not having a good accuracy of billing is that customers are, rightfully, disputing invoices and extending by such obviously some of the cash inflow, yes. And I'm not saying payment terms. It's just cash inflow because of the disputes. So we have worked on these 2 ends basically, where we said billing accuracy has improved the first-time-right, if you like, bill. And hence the payment terms can be honored, and the customer would like to honor them, obviously, when the invoice is correct. And on the other side, it's more the payables side.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [37]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Sam Bland from JPMorgan.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Samuel James Bland, JP Morgan Chase & Co, Research Division - Research Analyst [38]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got 2 questions, please. First one is on airfreight volumes because for the year as a whole you're targeting growth in line with the market, but I guess in Q3 organically volumes in airfreight were probably down 9% or so. Do you think that 9% down was in line with the market? Or was it weaker and, if so, might get bigger in future periods? The second question is just on the initial feedback and thoughts on the AirLOG rollout. Basically, how has it been received by employees? Is it this -- the rollout been smooth? Is it doing what it's expected to do?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [39]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure. Let me answer the 2 questions. The -- first of all, the AirLOG rollout went according to plan. We have all thousands of employees trained. The system is up and running. And now -- and I think we mentioned that in our last quarterly call as well. And now it's on us to drive productivity again. As always, when you have a new system, it takes time to search through that system, more or less, blindly and have all those shortcuts and tools and macros and so on available to ease up the processes, but that's working well. And I think that was the right path forward. And I'm looking forward to see AirLOG being part of our overall automation and productivity improvements in the years to come.

The airfreight growth. Yes, you -- we, for sure, have been more exposed with automotive and high tech than maybe the market. What -- we believe that, with our growth that is still ongoing growth in the pharma sector and the e-commerce fulfillment sector, partly in the aerospace sector, that will counterbalance. And therefore, our ambition or our estimate for this year in total is that we will shrink the volume in airfreight in line with market. And we will see whether we are able to achieve that target and -- when we comment on the full year 2019 results on February 27. So at the moment, I will say it's possible. And our biggest fallout, so to say, is automotive, as we had very special, high-density, high-weight transports, axles, for example, dashboards, last year in our network. And those are virtually gone.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [40]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Sebastian Vogel from UBS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sebastian Vogel, UBS Investment Bank, Research Division - Director & Sell Side Equity Research Analyst [41]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you hear me?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [42]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We hear you well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sebastian Vogel, UBS Investment Bank, Research Division - Director & Sell Side Equity Research Analyst [43]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perfect. I've got 3 questions. The first one will be on contract logistic. We have seen the growth rates are coming down. However, for 2020, do you foresee that also moving into negative territory? And do you expect some restructuring costs arising from that one? The other one would be on airfreight and seafreight. How much did lower shipping rates help you in the quarter 3? And the last one is that, if you can remind me on the FX and M&A impacts on net forwarding revenues in air and the FX impact on net forwarding revenues in sea, that will be appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [44]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right. So CL growth. At the moment, our organic growth is assumed to be on market. I do not expect any negative growth at all. And with the reduced growth, I'm quite confident we are able to reshape our contract logistics portfolio. And air and sea lower shipping rates, no. I think there is no effect from that side. We have -- the rates have no support and it doesn't really help us at all. It's more how our different trade lanes developing, how is [color] -- or where is growth and where do we see flat market developments also in seafreight. And that is what we are focusing on. There's no head- or tailwind from the shipping rates at the moment. And the trend, as you know, is that we -- the rates are -- or will increase by the end of quarter 4 in preparation of the IMO 2020 additional costs for sulfur, yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Markus Blanka-Graff, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - CFO & Member of the Management Board [45]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right. And I think last question was on currency impact in sea and air. We have roughly 4% in sea and 2% in air. If you want to have an exact split, whether it's acquisition, whether it's FX or other than that, I think [Chris] is more than happy to help you offline.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sebastian Vogel, UBS Investment Bank, Research Division - Director & Sell Side Equity Research Analyst [46]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That would be perfect, yes. Just one follow-up because I wasn't getting the answer with regard to the costs on contract logistics. Do you foresee some restructuring costs coming up as result of restructuring exercise?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [47]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, all the restructuring costs, all those costs, are part of our P&L. You have seen them already, so to say, in the figures that we have displayed. And there's no major restructuring cost to be expected in quarter 4 or next year's quarters, yes. It will always be part of our P&L. The -- I mean -- and to come back to your shipping rates topic, our strategy is not the sell rates. Our strategy is to sell solutions. And with solutions like time-critical shipments with our friends from Quick and with solutions for the different industries, we are very successful in the market. And we continue to grow with customers that are up-trading in their respective business units.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [48]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry. We have a follow-up question from Christian Obst from Baader Bank.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian Obst, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [49]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. Just a small follow-up. You mentioned some special sectors and solutions you are providing, of course; and the decline in auto and tech; and better pharma, e-commerce. Other calls before, you heavily mentioned the perishables, and you increased the networks there. Can you give us a current status of this business? And what do you expect going into 2020 from the perishables business?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [50]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So Christian, perishables are resilient to economic cycles usually or to the major extent. And we expect -- and we have made some acquisitions as well, smaller ones. We expect the perishables sector to continue to grow, and we expect a strong year 2020 with regards to perishable. Our strategy is focusing on KN FreshChain, which is incorporating our perishable business. And we are market leader here, and as a market leader, we continue to grow that business.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christian Obst, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [51]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay. There's no pressure on growth or margin in this business.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [52]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no pressure on growth, but -- and I think we mentioned that in -- during the analyst conference. We are also selective in our growth. Even the growth you show is already the result of being selective with where are markets, where are solutions and where are industries or sectors where we want to grow in and where are those that we find not so attractive at the moment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [53]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The next question comes from the line of Andy Chu from DB.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chi Onn Chu, Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division - Research Analyst [54]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have 2 questions, please. Is it possible for you to give an outlook maybe for sea -- for the sea market for next year? I think you gave a sort of pretty good answer in terms of looking to the next sort of 6 months or the remainder of this year, into next year, talking about a sort of flat sea market. I mean clearly the sort of -- there's been a breakdown in terms of the sort of multiplier to real GDP growth given the volatility in the market, but is there expectation that the sea market sort of returns to a little bit better growth and the sort of 1% to 2% for next year? And then on your acquisition in Austria -- and I know it's pretty small, but just in terms of a contribution, what sort of margin should we be thinking about for that business? Is sort of 2%, 3% a good starting point for that acquisition?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Detlef A. Trefzger, Kuehne + Nagel International AG - Chairman of Management Board & CEO [55]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All right. Andy, let me answer your seafreight -- or the market outlook. There is no reason not to believe that the GDP growth being in line with volume growth in the market one-to-one, as we know, at the moment should change next year. So from that point of view, GDP growth will be more or less the volume growth expectation for the seafreight market in 2020, but it might be different per trade lanes. And the trade lanes have shown a different development already during the last years or this year, and that will be ongoing on our point of view in 2020 as well.

M&A. Acquisition in Austria, I think it's really small. Please assume the same average margin that we show in the overland business per se in Europe or in -- per se. And there's nothing specific, neither above or below our average margin. They are focused on small- and medium-size customers for 95 years, as I mentioned, is our focus as well. And from that point of view, I would say we are happy with the JÖBSTL acquisition, and you should not see any deviation from that, yes.

So -- and I think -- I thank you all for participating in our call on the quarter 3 and year-to-date January-to-September results of Kuehne + Nagel International. And we look forward to talking to all of you in between the next couple of months during our road shows and analyst meetings but also, more important and -- when we comment on our -- and publish and comment on our 2019 full year results, which will happen on February 27, 2020. And in the meantime, take care. And I look forward to talk to you again. Bye-bye.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Operator [56]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference is now over. Thank you for choosing Chorus Call, and thank you for participating in the conference. You may now disconnect your lines. Goodbye.