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Edited Transcript of NEM.DE earnings conference call or presentation 31-Oct-19 8:30am GMT

Q3 2019 Nemetschek SE Earnings Call

MUENCHEN Nov 2, 2019 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Nemetschek SE earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 8:30:00am GMT

TEXT version of Transcript

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Corporate Participants

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* Patrik Heider

Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer

* Stefanie Zimmermann

Nemetschek SE - Head of IR & Corporate Communication

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Conference Call Participants

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* Andrew Lodovico DeGasperi

Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst

* Chandramouli Sriraman

MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - MD

* Erik Karlsson

* Holger Schmidt

Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst

* Knut Woller

Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst

* Martin Jungfleisch

Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Junior Equity Research Analyst

* Nika Zimmermann

Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division - Research Associate

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Presentation

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Stefanie Zimmermann, Nemetschek SE - Head of IR & Corporate Communication [1]

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But now let's start with the presentation. I would like to hand over to Patrik, who will lead you through the presentation.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [2]

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Thank you, Stefanie, and hello to everyone. I'm glad that you have joined our earnings call today. I will be brief in my presentation so that we have enough time for your questions afterwards.

In the third quarter, we delivered again a strong revenue growth of around 20% with an extraordinary increase in profitability of more than 46% in EBITDA growth. Overall, we are targeting another record year. The results after 9 months reflect our strong positioning in our industry, and I'm very confident to reach the upper end of our communicated guidance in terms of revenues and EBITDA margin.

Let me give you a more detailed overview of the 9-month highlights on Page 2, our key figures for the first 9 months 2019.

We continued with our strong growth and increased our revenues by around 23% year-to-date. Main drivers remained our recurring revenues with a growth of around 34% and the growth of roughly 8 -- 28% in our international markets.

EBITDA margin reached high of 29.4%. This high margin was partly influenced by the new IFRS 16 leasing standard. The adjusted EBITDA margin would have been 26.7%. That is exactly on previous year level. Same time, we have a diluted EBITDA margin in the Manage segment, meaning that we are very pleased with our high profitability.

Our cash conversion remains extremely high at 95.5% so that we can continue to grow our business both organically and by acquisitions.

On acquisition side. I mentioned already the 2 brand-level acquisitions in the last quarterly call. We performed 1 in the Manage segment and another 1 in the media segment. Both acquisitions will strengthen the development of the 2 segments.

Additionally, we sold our minority stake in DocuWare. The positive onetime gain of around EUR 30 million is shown in our financial results and increased our net results significantly.

Let's turn to Page 3., some more details on our top key figures in the third quarter.

We continued with our strong growth of around 20%. We benefited from a strong organic growth of 15.7% and the contribution of our new brand, Spacewell. Please have in mind that a part of the Spacewell revenues were already consolidated since September last year.

In Q3, we still saw a tailwind coming from the U.S. dollar of around 2 percentage points of our growth. As already mentioned, recurring revenues from software maintenance contracts and subscription continued with a very strong growth of 31.5%.

Our profitability with an EBITDA margin of 30.9% increased strongly, partly positively influenced by IFRS 16. The adjusted EBITDA margin of 28.2% is also above previous year level of 25.5%.

Our EPS nearly tripled from EUR 0.16 per share to EUR 0.47. The onetime gain of DocuWare sale of EUR 29.9 million is shown in the financial results. Adjusted EPS also grew nicely by 32.4%.

Let's turn to Page 4 on the 9-month figures that show a similar picture.

Cumulative growth was high at 22.7% with a strong organic growth of 17.2%. The currency tailwind improved our growth by around 3 percentage points.

In the first 9 months, recurring revenues from software maintenance contracts and subscription where the main growth driver with a plus of 33.9%. Our profitability with an EBITDA margin of 29.4% was very high. The adjusted EBITDA margin without the IFRS 16 effects was exactly on previous year level at 26.7%.

Some words to our margin situation. This year, we had acquisition-related costs and, therefore, an impact on our margins in Q1 from Axxerion, in Q2 from Redshift so that margins were a bit lower. If we look to Q3, we had low comparables because of the acquisition-related costs of MCS last year.

All in all, we are very happy, and we kept our margins year-over-year while at the same time having a lower margin in our Manage segment and continue to invest into future growth opportunities.

As already mentioned, EPS was positively influenced by the onetime gain of DocuWare sale. The reported growth was more than 80%. The adjusted growth was at 24.5%.

On Page 5, you can see the distribution of our revenues in recurring and software licenses. Meanwhile, we have around 54% of our total sales in recurring revenues. We expect that this number will increase over the next quarters because of the smooth transition to subscription. Some of our brands, such as dRofus, RISA and Spacewell, offer already subscription models. At the beginning of September with Maxon, another brand, has moved successfully towards a subscription-based business model that offers new customers very attractive options. You do not see any growth dip in this segment.

All in all, our revenues in subscription grew strongly with a growth rate of around 120% in the first 9 months. End of the first 9 months, we already -- we have already 9% of our total sales in subscription. While we had a very strong growth in subscription, we showed a lower growth rate of 7% in our license business over the first 9 months.

Both revenue types together underline our smooth transition to subscription and show great overall revenue growth and profitability. This successful approach remains unique in the industry and offers best choice and value to our customers and the company.

On Page 6, you see our international progress. The U.S. remains a strong, growing region. Scandinavia continued with an extremely strong growth of around 40%. But also, Germany grew double digits. The picture also shows that we have balanced growth over all regions.

Turning now to our segment overview on Page 7. The Build segment again achieved the strongest revenue growth with around 28%. Bluebeam remained strong, but also Nevaris is growing nicely. EBITDA margin was at high 32.7%. Adjusted EBITDA margin without the effects of IFRS 16 was about 29.5% above the previous year level. The Design segment reported a revenue growth of 11% in the first 9 months that is in line with the expectations. Profitability increased strongly to an EBITDA margin of 29%. Even without the impact of IFRS 16, we had a margin increase to 26.4%. The Manage segment was significantly strengthened through the acquisition of Spacewell. All in all, we saw an extremely strong growth from EUR 7.7 million to EUR 27.2 million. Organic growth was also high at 14.1%. Due to the acquisition costs and the below-average margin level at Spacewell, we saw a margin of 12.6%. Adjusted for the acquisition-related costs, we would have seen an EBITDA margin of 18.1% that is in line with our expectations.

Revenue in the Media & Entertainment segment increased very nicely by 24.3%. The integration of Redshift is proceeding successfully. The view of organic growth was still high with around 11% while same time migrating to subscriptions in September.

EBITDA margin is at 35% and lower than last year. But we are pleased with that number if we take the cost of the acquisition and the subscription readiness into account.

Our cash generation, shown on Page 8, remains strong. Our cash conversion rate is on EBITDA -- is on a high 95.5%. The operating cash flow increased strongly by around 58%. This growth reflects the strong operating performance, but we also saw positive effects from IFRS 16, a very efficient working capital management and lower tax paid.

Cash flow from investing activities is mainly driven by our acquisitions, meaning Axxerion and Redshift, and some higher CapEx. On the other side, we had a positive cash inflow from the DocuWare sale. Cash flow from financing activities contains the dividend payment, the repayments of debt and new loans for our acquisitions. This development is leading us toward a net debt situation of around EUR 15 million by the end of Q3 2019. All in all, we have enough room to invest into our future growth, both organically and by acquisitions.

Let's come to the end of my presentation on Page 9. With our strong basis for the 9-month figures, we are very confident to reach the upper end of our guidance in terms of revenues and EBITDA margin. Organic growth will continue on the level we saw in the last quarters. A part of the revenues from Spacewell were already consolidated in Q4 last year so that total growth, as expected, will come down a little bit because of this effect but will stay in the range of 17% to 19%.

From today's perspective, and based on the current portfolio, we are planning to reach our revenue for 2019 at the upper end of the communicated range of EUR 540 million to EUR 550 million, which translates into a year-on-year growth of 17% to 19%.

Group EBITDA margin with the IFRS 16 effects for 2019 is expected to reach the upper end of the target of 27% to 29%.

Thank you very much for your ongoing interest into the Nemetschek Group. I'm now happy to answer your questions.

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Questions and Answers

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Operator [1]

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(Operator Instructions) We Have a question from [Eric Karlsson] from [KU Capital].

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Erik Karlsson, [2]

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The EBITDA margin was very strong in the quarter. Could you just help us understand if there's any one-off effects or anything else helping the margin or if we can extrapolate the strength in the margin?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [3]

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Yes, of course. And as I said, slightly in the presentation that the comparables to the year before in Q3 last year, we had the MCS acquisition with the full cost effect in Q3. And obviously then, we have a higher growth this year. That's the only one-off effect we can announce. But on the other side, of course, we have the operational efficiency within this margin as well. So we are all in line and this is on plan. And the one-off effect, as I mentioned, is a comparable to the year before.

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Operator [4]

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We have a following question from Martin Jungfleisch from Kepler Cheuvreux.

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Martin Jungfleisch, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Junior Equity Research Analyst [5]

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I have 2. The first one is on the guidance. If we assume the upper end of the guided range of around EUR 550 million, this would, I think, on my numbers, only result in a Q4 growth of around 10%. And if you add the contribution from M&A and probably an FX tailwind to be even a bit lower, can you maybe explain a little bit what has driven this cautiousness in the guidance, why you don't have -- maybe upgrade the guidance slightly? That's the first question.

And then on the -- my second question is on the strong growth in subscription that you saw. Do you now see an increased demand from your customers for subscriptions? And also, did you plan to offer additional brands for subscription and maybe also through a maintenance-to-subscription offer?

And also on that, and can you remind me how the economics would look like going from maintenance to subscription and if there would be a net positive to your earnings?

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Stefanie Zimmermann, Nemetschek SE - Head of IR & Corporate Communication [6]

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Thank you, Martin, for the questions. Coming to the guidance part. I mean, as you know, I was a very fair and open communicator in our figures. We also -- we are also clear about this currency headwind always and very transparent. And we do see the guidance, obviously, to the blend rate. And this is why we don't -- we will communicate also the impacts from the currency headwind, which will be high this year, and we assume another one in Q4. And we feel comfortable, even to the blend rate, to reach the guidance. And this means -- and that said, we don't increase the guidance because of a currency headwind. And this is what maybe other companies would do, but we not, so we feel confident, even on the blend rate, to reach the guidance, and there is no caution as this -- as I said, growth will continue. In the organic part -- in the overall part, it will come down a bit because you need to consider Q4 already consolidated MCS last year, but it will stay in the range of 17% to 19%.

Coming to your second question of subscription, we don't see any big changes from customer side. But we do see another brand rolling into subscription very successful, and that's Maxon. There's only one month in the quarter, and it started very well. As you can see also from our press release, it's -- historically, you see the best months and the best September Maxon had ever. And this is what we want to challenge. As you know, all our brands moving to subscription. Yes, of course there will be upcoming brands in the next quarters or in the next years, I would say, and we will announce it brand by brand.

And the second question you related to subscription is very difficult to answer for me in a professional way because, as you know, we have 16 brands with completely 16 different models behind. And that said, I can't give you a general answer how maintenance would transform to subscription. But obviously, we will do it when it happens per brand. So I can't give you the economics behind it because it just doesn't exist for the Nemetschek Group.

By the way, this is also an advantage we're having as a group, as we are not having one product needed to move to subscription. We, as financial holding here as well, can always decide which brand goes first, which brands come now. And this is why this is much easier to manage. Hopefully, that answers your questions a bit, at least.

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Martin Jungfleisch, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Junior Equity Research Analyst [7]

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Yes. That's helpful. So the guidance is still on a EUR -- U.S. dollar rate of EUR 1.17 or EUR 1.18?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [8]

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It was on the blend rate

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Stefanie Zimmermann, Nemetschek SE - Head of IR & Corporate Communication [9]

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EUR 1.19.

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Martin Jungfleisch, Kepler Cheuvreux, Research Division - Junior Equity Research Analyst [10]

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EUR 1.19. Okay. Okay.

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Operator [11]

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Our next question is from Knut Woller from Baader Bank.

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Knut Woller, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [12]

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A couple. Patrik, you touched it already a bit on -- earlier when you talked about the strong subscription trends. However, it seems like 2019 is the first year where we see a slightly slowing license momentum going forward. And also, getting back to Martin's question before that you expect more brands to move to subscriptions. How should we think about license growth going forward on the back of this development with more brands likely moving to subscriptions or at least offering also this way to consume or buy the software?

Then secondly, on the special investments, can you update us what of the invest was booked in the first 9 months? And then I lastly would like to get some more insights into the Build segment. Can you break out how Bluebeam fared and also what to expect here, whether there's been any reason to change your assumptions on the growth you expect for Bluebeam also over the medium term.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [13]

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Thank you, Knut, for the questions. And coming back to the license growth, I mean, we would -- from today's standing and perspective, we would remain with what we said the last couple of quarters or this year at least that we expect license growth moving forward in the high single-digit growth. Yes, in Q3, we had some nicely, even more than may be expected because Maxon did very well in Q3 with that move into subscription, and that's also great. This is why we always say you need to see both revenue streams together, leading to a nicely revenue growth in the organic corridor of 13% to 15%.

So expect -- and it's very difficult, Knut, as you know, to guide for me and for us because this is really relating to the subscription move as well. And -- but I would assume that high single-digit license growth is still realistic also looking to the year -- or to the next year.

In the special investments, no updated. This is why I did not really relate into my presentation. I would say 75% as we go moving forward, Q3. They are all running well, and there is no really a special update for that one. Of course, when we have updates with go-to-market things, we always said we will announce them. And you could expect in next year something coming up, but this is all in line and all running well.

To the Build segment, I would say as we also stated, Bluebeam 2 pricing raises, as you might remember that one, in the last 2 years. So don't expect Bluebeam to stay with a revenue CAGR of more than 30% but in the high teens. And this is already going a bit down, not negatively meant, but going a bit down because we always said that it will flatten out for this year. But still, it's a great performance, and the great performance is coming from everywhere still in the U.S. business but also in the European business, also for Germany where they started last year.

So also, in that Build segment is nicely performing Nevaris. This is why since a couple of quarters I can expressingly name them in the presentation, because they are really doing nicely. They are clearly above the operating growth guidance of 13% to 15%. So they are really doing well, and we really appreciate their performance, which helps the Build segment, of course, to get it on a broader base, performing more than 13% to 15% in the growth guidance. Hopefully, that helps and answers your question.

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Knut Woller, Baader-Helvea Equity Research - Analyst [14]

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Yes. Just one question to clarify with regards to the special investor. I only try to get a feeling what was used already. And was it 75% that you have used of the special invest plan for this year in the first 9 months? Okay, that was understood correctly. And then maybe just finishing off, on a personal note, congratulations on the performance of the last years of Nemetschek, the whole team. And under your leadership, I think it's quite remarkable looking at the growth and margin profile against the backdrop of the overall trends in the industry. And all the best for your future.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [15]

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Thank you very much for your kind words, and I appreciate very much. And thank you for your trust. Thank you.

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Operator [16]

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We have a next question from Chandra Sriraman from MainFirst.

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Chandramouli Sriraman, MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - MD [17]

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And all the very best from me as well, Patrik. So just a couple of things from my side. In terms of Build margins, I mean, they continue to be very strong. Do you have a sense of where the steady-state margins for Build should be?

The other question, second question from me is now that Maxon is moving quite aggressively to subscriptions, we see some impact on the profitability. Could that be used as a reference in terms of how potentially the whole of Nemetschek could move in the medium term?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [18]

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Thank you, Chandra, also for your greetings. And I also, yes, appreciate our cooperation. Thank you.

And for the Build margins, that's very difficult because we need to see how the price increase, obviously, went into the business, what we'll -- what we see -- what we're going to invest in the future, in the upcoming periods into. But all in all, I think the upper end of the 20s is reasonable for the moment. It depends also on the gross profile, how Bluebeam will move forward when we stay in the high teens and with that margin level.

So I don't give a guidance today. But obviously, they're having the operational efficiency. And please take into consideration also the price increase.

For the Maxon parts, it's -- as we always state, I mean, subscription is not immediately moving to a margin increase. In the midterm and in the long run, yes. But for this year -- all the lower margins for this year is getting ready for subscriptions. I mean it's all the IT investments you need to do (inaudible), licensing, all the sales force parts, you need to make sure that subscription is running. So in the first year, you'll have clearly an investment to be subscription ready. But then afterwards, obviously, you scale it up. And that will also happen. So the -- this is why I said we are extremely pleased to see such a high margin with no revenue dips moving to subscription, which is great. That's exactly the case we would like to be delivered from our brands, to be honest. Of course, expectation setting has been high for all the brands, but that's a great case to move to subscription.

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Chandramouli Sriraman, MainFirst Bank AG, Research Division - MD [19]

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Okay. Great. And maybe one follow-up question on subscriptions again. So would you be able to -- I mean, I know it's a difficult question to answer, but would you be able to give a sense of -- in terms of what percentage of products in your licenses are now completely available in subscriptions just to get a sense of the progress in terms of this migration?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [20]

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I mean we have now 4 brands in full subscription. This is dRofus, this is RISA in the Design segment. This is Spacewell in the Manage segment. And this is now Maxon into the Media & Entertainment.

I would say from a feeling what market is expecting is, is the next ones are -- being closer to subscription demand is definitely Build and Manage segment. In the Design segment, we don't have so much high request moving to subscription. And we bought RISA and dRofus into subscription engine. So this -- the -- I would expect that brands in Design -- in Build and Manage would go next to this world. In the Design segment, we don't feel a pressure here with -- from customer side, but of course, they -- that doesn't mean that they don't have any plans. They have plans, but this will be next brands. So all in all, 4 brands at the moment, and it makes us and leads us at the moment to 9% of the overall revenues coming from pure subscription. Okay, Chandra?

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Operator [21]

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Second, we have a follow-up question from Nika Zimmermann from Deutsche Bank.

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Nika Zimmermann, Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division - Research Associate [22]

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I got actually 3. The first one is for the, well, your quasi guidance upgrade. Do you also guide for the upper end of the organic growth rate of 13% to 15%? That's the first one.

The second one is regarding the margin levels in Design and Build. Could -- do you think you could look at it right now as kind of a normalized level? I mean this one is excluding now the M&A and the acquisition costs of last year. So from my point of view, it could actually be a normalized one. And the last one is on Maxon. I mean yes, Maxon was very successful now with the subscription switch. And as I understood, there was no revenue dips. But did you actually also see no churn, like no customer churn at all? Those 3 questions.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [23]

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Of course. And so definitely, for the organic growth rate, we will definitely see it similar because that goes in line with the overall growth. As you know, 13% to 15%, 17% to 19%. So I would even confirm that also for the organic growth. And that was the first question.

The margin level, that's an easy to smile a bit. Of course, you would love to see that as a normalized, but a lot of things around. And I would like to wait a little bit with the word normalized because you also know that there's a high impact of IFRS. And we started the year with having an IFRS impact around 2%, but now we have a bit more. So that means 2.5%. It is reasonable at the moment, even 2.6%. So let's see the year how IFRS impacted.

And then on the other side, you are absolutely right for acquisition costs, all the one-off effects. That also relates to the growth rates we are delivering. So we always say the following. In the -- and we remain like this.

Into that organic growth rate, 13% to 15%, and continue to invest into that one to keep it sustainable, a reasonable guidance for margin is 27% to 29%. So -- but let's see how IFRS impact brings us maybe to a different level. And then, of course, the growth rate is depending on the margin level. Because if we would only grow 10% to 12%, you would definitely see the higher-margin, most realistic into -- with the 3 -- that's the single digit, the first single digit around that one.

And Maxon. No, to be honest. At the moment, not. We don't see any churn here. Even the opposite. I mean this is really great, what we now have for possibilities to attract the customer base much broader and larger with Maxon. But I also see it's realistic from our expectations. I think it's only 1 month. So the first 1 month, we are all amazed and all happy. But let's see in Q4. We are very optimistic. And also, for the organic growth rate, you won't see any dip, also not for next year. But all the KPIs around it and all the sustainable success not only coming from one month, we will report, obviously, in the next possibilities we have.

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Nika Zimmermann, Deutsche Bank AG, Research Division - Research Associate [24]

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Perfect. And then just a few words from my side. It was great getting to know you over the last month. And I need to agree with others. You did a remarkable job, and I wish you all the best for your future.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [25]

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That's very kind. Thank you very much. And all the best to you as well.

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Operator [26]

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We have a next question from Andrew DeGasperi from Berenberg.

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Andrew Lodovico DeGasperi, Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst [27]

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Maybe first, traditionally with the subscription models that we've seen, the model exhibited lower churn. I'm just wondering if you've seen that happen with the bookings that have converted.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [28]

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Yes. But also, I mean, all the brands, we bought into -- we brought them into with subscription. And here, churn is definitely low. All in all, churn in the Nemetschek Group is low. I mean we are below 2.5% -- around the 2.5%, which is amazing as a software company, I think. But also here for the subscription and also I mentioned already to Maxon, I can confirm that view, yes.

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Andrew Lodovico DeGasperi, Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst [29]

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Got it. And then maybe secondly, I know this was asked in the past, but the macro construction indicators have turned recently, and some of your peers have flagged weakness, particularly in the Americas. I was just wondering if you've seen that at all. Or are you still essentially immune to that trend?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [30]

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Of course, we see it as a management. And what I always stayed fairly here if a really worldwide prices would occur, then Nemetschek would not be squeezed out and we would have some hits. But on the other side, we are clearly a little bit, let's say, away from those macroeconomics as we stand for the digitalization in our AEC workflow. And that one, as you know, has to be done with the BIM regulations coming obligatory in 2020, blah, blah, blah, and all the efficiency parts, for example, for the Build segment. I mean what they do with our investment. They increase their profitability. So this is why we don't see any trends here coming up. Of course, we also see some regions per quarter -- on a quarterly base might be weaker, but then they catch up. And this is why my international chart from my presentation is very important.

Overall, we are clearly satisfied with all regions. And this is why we keep an eye on to that one. But it's -- at the moment, it doesn't appear in our industry. If it would appear, then you know, and I'm always telling it, we have a lot of risk diversifications and things to react. I mean, we are now along that overall value chain. We are the only provider from an end-to-end process in AEC. We can, of course, treat the investments differently, so we can increase margin as a software company and react very fast. We have now 54% in recurring revenues. All such things would help. We're not saying that it's -- it needs to be done now, but it would help. But all in all, no, we don't see anything at the moment.

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Andrew Lodovico DeGasperi, Joh. Berenberg, Gossler & Co. KG, Research Division - Analyst [31]

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Great. And good luck, Patrik on your next steps.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [32]

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Thank you very much. And welcome to the team, from Berenberg.

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Operator [33]

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We have a following question from Erik Karlsson from [KU Capital].

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Erik Karlsson, [34]

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I had another question on the subscription move. Clearly, you remain customer focused, unless the customers decide pace as opposed to sort of the financial aspect that we have seen some other companies take. But purely from a financial aspect, could you just help us understand a little bit what is the payback of the move to subscription?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [35]

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Also, yes, I can't give you an overall satisfying answer. It depends on the brands, again, how they move into. But you're clearly right, and I want to stress it again, in our goal, not the financial model will influence the financial -- the subscription move from the brands, it's more the customer proposition.

And as we said here with the Maxon case, also the Redshift acquisition in the year beginning helped very much to make that successfully, and -- because now we are adding an added value for customers and can move them combined with this added value, meaning offering Redshift to subscription. And -- but it depends on -- an overall return on investment is very difficult to mention. But obviously, yes, as I said, the customer proposition first and then the financial model will be successful. Because otherwise, we would really risk churn, and that was the question before and all the questions before. So sorry for I can't give you an overall general answer.

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Erik Karlsson, [36]

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And on behalf of all investors, Patrik, thank you for all your hard work and exceptional results for investors over time.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [37]

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Thank you very much. I really appreciate your comments, and thank you for the trust to everyone.

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Operator [38]

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We have a next question from Holger Schmidt from Metzler Capital Markets.

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Holger Schmidt, Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst [39]

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The first one is could you give us an update on the efforts to increase your exposure to the infrastructure market segment? And the second one is on your product portfolio. If you look into your product portfolio and regional setup, where do you see the strongest need for M&A activity?

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [40]

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Yes, of course. Thank you, first of all, for the question. For the infrastructure exposure, we already saw, and this is what we communicated, but not this today, you're right, an overproportional growth to the buildings market. So this year is interesting because they are normally highly state-driven infrastructure, are all about streets, bridges. They are growing a bit stronger than the buildings part. And that's obviously interesting for us. I mean we have amazing tools to get exactly into that one. Take Allplan Bridge, what we announced last year. Allplan Bridge is one of the progressed and modern tools to really design bridges in 3D, and this is really working very well. So infrastructure part as it is now, a little bit more than 25% of our portfolio becomes critical and crucial also in crisis times and is a nice part of our overall portfolio.

In terms of regions, products, our Manage segment, I would say, is highest priority to invest further. As it is quite a new segment, as you know, we recently invested with 2 brands here into, and a lot of opportunities.

Second, I would say, remains Build. And then I would never exclude Design. But definitely, from a priority or, let's say, from the opportunities as well, it's maybe not as given as the Build or Manage segment.

And in M&E, I would say it's all about brand-level acquisitions. We will not go further with a top additional brand. But for brand-level acquisitions, it remains interesting. Hopefully, that answers your question.

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Holger Schmidt, Metzler Equities, Research Division - Research Analyst [41]

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Excellent. It was my pleasure on being able to work with you, and all the best for your future as well.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [42]

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Very kind, very -- thank you. And also the same from me. Thank you.

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Operator [43]

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We have no other questions for the moment.

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Patrik Heider, Nemetschek SE - Spokesman of the Executive Board and Chief Financial & Operations Officer [44]

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Okay. Then apparently, it's up to me. I would like to thank you for the last couple of years. Today is my last call to the community. But obviously, I will jump to some of the remaining conferences with Stefanie, so we will have a chat maybe one to each other.

I also would like to thank you. Nemetschek brought me a lot. I think I could contribute a bit to Nemetschek as well the last couple of years.

It was a personal decision. I will continue to love Nemetschek, and Nemetschek is a great system which will move forward and be very successful in the future.

So I'm happy to see you in one place or the other. And I really would like to thank you for all your trust. You brought in the big discussions, the nice discussions we had, and I will presently wish you all the best for your future.

And also, I'm making sure that I transition all the topics to Axel Kaufmann, who will be a great leader, to move that forward to the next stage. And you won't see any topics on the street -- lying on the street and not being solved. And Nemetschek will be successful in the future, and this is why I continue to love Nemetschek.

Thank you very much and all the best, and have a nice year-end phase, Patrik. Thank you.

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Operator [45]

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Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference. Thank you all for your participation. You may now disconnect.