Rep. Jay Obernolte (R-CA) joins Yahoo Finance’s Rachelle Akuffo from Washington, D.C., to discuss the possibility of a U.S.-TikTok data ban as CEO Shou Chew takes the stand before Congress, TikTok’s threat to national security, and why the app is collecting U.S. user data.
Video Transcript
BRAD SMITH: TikTok CEO preparing for a grilling on Capitol Hill as he sets up to face lawmakers over a potential ban of the video sharing app. Yahoo Finance's Rachelle Akuffo is on Capitol Hill with one of them now. Rachelle, take it away.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: Hey, Brad. Thank you so much. So, yes, live here on Capitol Hill, this really highly anticipated testimony that we're expecting from the CEO. But joining me now is Representative Jay Obernolte of California. I want to thank you for joining me first. And obviously, you have a very special unique background when it comes to AI, something that's rare in Congress here. Talk about your top concerns when it comes to the AI usage of the technology and how TikTok is using that.
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, artificial intelligence is really key to the problems that we're considering with not only TikTok, but also other social media companies. The fact is these big tech social media companies are collecting this incredible volume of data about American users. And if you have access to that data and you have access to good AI algorithms, you can use that to create eerily accurate predictions of human behavior, and also, use those predictions to influence future human behavior. So from a national security perspective, that would be a very dangerous tool to allow to fall in the hands of a foreign country, which is why we're having this hearing today.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: So a lot of people are wondering, are there concrete examples that you've perhaps seen the CCP using this data nefariously, or is it more about the potential of what they can do with the data?
JAY OBERNOLTE: I think it's mostly about the potential and about the fact that TikTok has been very evasive when it comes to telling people exactly what data they're collecting, where that data is being stored, and how that data is used. And again, I don't think this is unique to TikTok, although TikTok has been under scrutiny and, really, to be honest, has not dealt with that scrutiny very gracefully.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: And I mean, as you mentioned some other examples of other social media companies who, perhaps, there are also questions about what they do with the data, is there, then, a concern that it seems like TikTok is being singled out when you do have sort of data brokering going on with Facebook, as we saw with some of the misinformation that happened with the campaign?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, sure. I mean, I think that's fair. But consider the fact that we're not talking about banning Facebook, for example, because Facebook is a company where we have concerns about the way the data is being used, but they aren't national security concerns. They are privacy concerns. And we're going to be talking later this year in Congress about comprehensive federal data privacy legislation that would protect the data privacy of American users in ways that prevent that kind of bad behavior that we're concerned about.
But we have a specific national security concern in the case of data that could fall into the hands of a foreign country and be used to influence American public opinion, which other countries have been caught doing this in the past. So that's the basis of the hearing today.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: And so what sort of assurances would you like to hear from TikTok at this point?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, Shou Chew, the president of TikTok, is going to be testifying at the hearing. He and I have had previous discussions about this. We're both software engineers, so we kind of talk on a level that's different than most members of Congress. But I'm going to have some very pointed questions for him about something called Project Texas. That's what TikTok is calling it. This is their answer to our concerns about the privacy of American user data and a plan from them on how to protect that usage.
But I have some serious technical concerns that there's really nothing that you can do if you have someone with malicious intent. There's nothing you can do from a technical perspective to prevent that from happening. So I want to ask about their source code control. I want to ask about the standards of encryption that they have on their data and some other technical details about Project Texas because I have some skepticism that it's going to do what they claim it's going to do.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: And we do have a few notes from Shou Chew's prepared testimony, especially regarding Project Texas. He says that Oracle has already begun inspecting TikTok's source code and will have unprecedented access to the related algorithms and data models, and that when the process is complete, that all protected US data will be under the protection of US law and under the control of a US-led security team. And he claims that under this structure, there is no way for the Chinese government to access it or compel it to do so. Do you think that goes far enough, though? Does that alleviate the concerns that you have?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, as a software engineer myself, I have some deep technical skepticism that it's going to do exactly what he says it's going to do. So my questions for him are going to revolve around, that's great, Oracle is going to review the source code. How much source code is there? Where is that source code stored?
When a software engineer in China, for example, makes a change to that source code, how is that change integrated into the system? And how long between when that change is added and when it goes live to the user? How long before someone at Oracle reviews that change? Those are the kind of questions that I'm concerned about. And that's just one narrow domain of Project Texas. There are a lot of different aspects I'd like to discuss.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: And so, then, talk about some of those aspects because, obviously, that is just one part. What else would you like to question Shou Chew about?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, again, some of the other technical aspects, particularly of what user data they're collecting, why they're collecting it, and how it's being stored. So one of the aspects of Project Texas is that TikTok wants to shift the storage of American user data completely within the United States. And they claim that that's a way of protecting that data.
But for myself, I don't care as much where it's stored. I care who has access to it. I care if it's mirrored, if it's backed up, where do those backups occur. I want to know who's writing the server code, who's maintaining the server code. I want to know if it's possible for a software engineer with malicious intent to get inserted into Oracle's employment structure or USDS, which is the US arm of TikTok. Those are the kind of safeguards I'm going to be asking about.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: Now, as I did mention, you do have this unique position of having a graduate degree in AI. How hard is it to try and shape policy in this space when the expertise is so narrow, and you do have a lot of lawmakers who don't have a familiarity with this?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, you know, I think it takes people from all different walks of life to create a functioning legislative body. And so I'm glad I'm here representing the AI community. There are only four computer scientists in Congress currently, which I would say we're underrepresented. So I spend a lot of time educating my colleagues about the real dangers of AI and the ways that I think it could be used to create economic conditions that look and act like monopolies in the United States. So we're going to be working on that. But I'm glad that I'm here to be able to be a resource to my colleagues because I think that that's what it takes to create a well reasoned intelligent law.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: Now, obviously, you have a lot of TikTok creators who make their money on there. And Shou Chew, ahead of this testimony on TikTok, said that there are about 5 million businesses who rely on this, mostly small and medium businesses. You're a businessperson yourself. What would you tell some of these companies who are saying, look, this is my livelihood that could be impacted by a ban?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Sure. Well, that's why we're being so careful and deliberate about this because the last thing that Congress wants to do is step in and ban something that Americans use. But when there are safety implications, when there are national security implications, we have an obligation, a constitutional obligation, to step in and look at what those implications are, what the risks are, and the way that we can most appropriately solve them.
So that's why we're having this hearing today. It's part of the deliberative process. We're not marking up a bill to ban TikTok today. What we're doing is asking pointed questions of TikTok and its management about the concerns that we have. And we'll see based on those answers and some of our technical investigations what the next steps are.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: And we have seen certain countries ban TikTok, like India, for example. And we have seen some state bans as well. Is a total ban really the best option on the table? Is there perhaps a middle ground that could be found?
JAY OBERNOLTE: Well, in the long-term, the solution is for the United States to adopt federal data privacy protections that apply not only to TikTok, but all of the big tech and social media companies. The ways that AI can be used to manipulate markets, to manipulate public opinions, are truly alarming. And AI has a lot of beneficial uses. Don't get me wrong. I think it's going to create an inflection point where human prosperity is going to expand like never before. So it's going to be a great thing for human society, but it has these economic dangers that we, as protectors of the free markets, have to guard against.
So long-term, that's what we need to do. And I know that the chairwoman of the Energy and Commerce Committee chair, McMorris Rodgers, and the ranking member Frank Pallone, and I, and a bunch of other members of the committee are hard at work at legislation to do that. So that's the long-term solution. And any action with respect specifically to TikTok is just in the short-term.
RACHELLE AKUFFO: All right. Well, I do thank you for your time this morning. I know it's a busy day for you, Representative Obernolte, thank you so much.
