Q4 2023 Kaiser Aluminum Corp Earnings Call
Participants
Kim Orlando; IR; ADDO Investor Relations
Keith Harvey; President & CEO; Kaiser Aluminum Corporation
Neal West; EVP & CFO; Kaiser Aluminum Corporation
Josh Sullivan; Analyst; The Benchmark Company, LLC.
Bill Peterson; Analyst; JPMorgan Chase & Co.
Timna Tanners; Analyst; Wolfe Research, LLC
Curt Woodworth; Analyst; UBS AG
Presentation
Operator
Greetings, and welcome to the Kaiser Aluminum Corporation's Fourth Quarter 2023 earnings conference call.
At this time, all participants are in a listen only mode. A brief question and answer session will follow the formal presentation. If anyone should require operator assistance during the conference, please press star zero on your telephones. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded, and it is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Kim Orlando, Investor Relations. Ma'am, you may begin.
Kim Orlando
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. And welcome to Kaiser Aluminum's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 earnings conference call. If you have not seen a copy of our earnings release, please visit the Investor Relations page on our website at kaiseraluminum.com. We have also posted a PDF version of the slide presentation for this call. Joining me on the call today are President and Chief Executive Officer, Keith Harvey, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, Neil West.
Before we begin, I'd like to refer you to the first four slides of our presentation and remind you that the statements made by management and the information contained in this presentation that constitute forward-looking statements based on management's current expectation for a summary of specific risk factors that could cause results to differ materially from the forward-looking statements. Please refer to the Company's earnings release and reports filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission, including the Company's annual report on Form 10 K for the full year ended December 31st, 2023, which will be filed on February 23rd, 2024. The Company undertakes no duty to update any forward-looking statements to conform the statement to actual results or changes in the Company's expectations. In addition, we have included non-GAAP financial information in our discussion. Reconciliations to the most comparable GAAP financial measures are included in the earnings release and in the appendix of the presentation.
Reconciliations of certain forward-looking non-GAAP financial measures to comparable GAAP financial measures are not provided because of certain items required for such reconciliation outside of our control and or cannot be reasonably predicted or provided without unreasonable effort. Any reference to EBITDA in our discussion today means adjusted EBITDA, which excludes non-run rate items for which we have provided reconciliations in the appendix.
Further Slide 5 contains definitions of terms and measures that will be commonly used throughout today's presentation. At the conclusion of the Company's presentation, we will open the call for questions. I would now like to turn the call over to Keith Harvey.
Keith?
Keith Harvey
Thanks, Kim, and thank you all for joining us for a review of our fourth quarter and full year 2023 results.
Turning to Slide 7. I'm very pleased with the hard work and dedication of the entire Kaiser team this past year, which enabled us to set the foundation for long term, sustainable and increasingly profitable growth in the years to come. Our focused strategy, unwavering execution and commitment to our customers allowed us to end the year in a solid position with ample resources to implement our growth initiatives. We delivered fourth quarter results above our expectations with $52 million of adjusted EBITDA. Despite continued destocking in some of our markets and inflationary pressures, our efforts to lower cost and improve operating efficiencies are taking hold across the platform, an exceptionally strong aerospace mix experienced during the quarter also contributed to our strong results. Performance in the fourth quarter and full year 2023 establishes a solid foundation for the company as we transition towards completing our investments and executing our growth strategy for 2024 and the future.
I'll now turn the call over to Neal for more details on our 2023 results.
Neil?
Neal West
Thank you, Keith.
Good morning, everyone. I'll begin on Slide 9 with an overview of shipments and conversion revenue. While the demand environment for the full year of 2023 was mix. Conversion revenue for the year was a record $1.47 billion, an increase of $83 million or 6% compared to 2022 while total shipments were down GBP58 million or 5%.
Looking at each of our end markets in detail, aerospace and high-strength product demand remained very strong and by year end, our conversion revenue surpassed the peak levels we experienced in 2019 prior to the pandemic, which is well ahead of our initial expectations. We delivered fourth quarter and full year conversion revenue ahead of our outlook as Refinitiv benefited from a more favorable product mix than anticipated, our unique ability to flex our capacity in our Trentwood facility as general engineering demand remained soft, further contributed to our performance for the full year 2023 aero high strength conversion revenue totaled $533 million, up $177 million or 50%, reflecting higher pricing and a 36% increase in shipments over last year. And packaging destocking activity with them with our beverage customers stabilize during the fourth quarter. However, as we noted in our third quarter call, we experienced destocking in our coated food products in the fourth quarter, which makes up a considerable amount of our shipments for the full year of 2023. Packaging conversion revenue was $503 million, down 9% year over year. Shipments during the year were down 7% or GBP43 million over 2022, which as a reminder, was impacted by our magnesium related declaration of force majeure in addition to shipments being impacted by destocking in the market, primarily by beverage related products in the first half of the year, followed by the COVID food products. In the fourth quarter, conversion revenue was impacted by a less favorable product mix, which negatively affected our results in general engineering, reduced demand for plate products, along with increased availability of imports persisted through Q4. We expected pricing to remain under pressure for these products until semiconductor demand returns.
In regard to our GE. Long Products, we saw destocking beginning to stabilize in the fourth quarter following five quarters of steady destocking. General engineering conversion revenue for 2023 was $305 billion, down 17% year over year due to a 29% reduction in shipment as a result of destocking, primarily for plate products on higher pricing to address inflationary freight inflationary costs. And finally, automotive demand remained relatively stable as supply chain issues continued to offset fairly good demand for the full year 2023 auto conversion revenue was $116 million, up 21% over 2022 on an 8% increase in shipments due primarily to higher pricing to offset inflationary costs. Additional details and conversion revenue and shipments by end market applications can be found in the appendix of this presentation.
Now moving to Slide 10. Reported operating income for 2023 was $96 million after adjusting for corporate restructuring costs of approximately $5 million, adjusted operating income was $101 million up $66 million from 2022. Our effective tax rate for the full year 2023 was 16% compared to 22% in 2022 primarily due to an R&D credit created during the year. Cash taxes for the full year 2023 was approximately $2 million. For the full year 2024, we expect our effective tax rate before discrete items to continue to be in the low to mid 20% range under current tax regulations. We anticipate that our 2024 cash taxes are foreign and state taxes to continue to be in a $2 million to $3 million range with no U.S. federal cash taxes until we consume our federal NOLs, which as of year end 2023 were $101 million. Reported net income for 2023 was $47 million for an income of $2.92 per diluted share compared to a net loss of approximately $30 million or a loss of $1.86 per diluted share in 2022. After adjusting for a net total of approximately $4 million of pretax non-run-rate gain, including the previously mentioned restructuring charge, adjusted net income for 2023 was $44 million or an income of $2.74 per adjusted diluted share compared to an adjusted net loss of approximately $9 million or a loss of $0.55 per adjusted diluted share in 2022 Now turning to Slide 11. Adjusted EBITDA for 2023 was $210 million, up approximately $68 million from 2022 adjusted EBITDA as a percentage of conversion revenue improved by approximately 400 basis points from 2022 to 14.3%. The improvement in adjusted EBITDA was primarily the result of higher pricing to capture the higher cost of alloys and other inflationary costs with a higher mix of aerospace product shipments. In addition, we continue to stabilize operations following the significant supply chain issues we experienced at our work rolling mill over the last two years and remain focused on cost reductions and operational efficiencies across our platform, including corporate and plant overhead related costs to address the impact of inflationary costs. Partially offsetting these actions throughout the year, as noted earlier, was destocking in packaging and general engineering, along with continuing inflationary cost, which we believe are beginning to subside.
Now turning to a discussion of our balance sheet and cash flow, which we generated approximately $69 million of positive free cash flow for the full year 2023, primarily due to lower capital expenditures than anticipated and improved anticipated inventory management at the end of December 2023, total cash of approximately $82 million and approximately $570 million of net borrowing availability on our revolving credit facility provided total liquidity of nearly $600 million. There were no borrowings under the revolving credit facility very and as of the quarter end December 31, and it remains undrawn. Our total liquidity position remains strong. As a reminder, our senior notes interest costs are fixed at $48 million annually, and we have no debt maturing until 2028.
As of December 2023, our net debt leverage ratio improved over 200 basis points to 4.6 from seven times at year end 2022, moving towards our targeted leverage ratio of 2 times to 2.5 times.
Turning to capital allocation, our strategy remains focused on supporting the growth of our business while concurrently returning value to our stockholders in the form of quarterly cash dividends.
Our full year capital expenditures came in below forecast at $143 million, which was predominantly driven by the timing of submission for bill payments related to our growth capital projects. We now project for the full year 2024 that our capital expenditures will be in a range of $170 million to $190 million, which reflects the carryover from 2023 due to timing. Our road coal project remains on schedule with the majority of the remaining $110 million to be spent in 2024 the balance of capital expenditures will be for ongoing sustainability and additional growth projects, which Keith will cover shortly. Additionally, we turned approximately $50 million in 2023 to our shareholders through dividend payments, making it our 17th consecutive consecutive year of dividend payments to our shareholders.
On January 11th, we announced that our Board of Directors declared a quarterly dividend of $0.77 per common share, which underscores the continuing confidence, our Board and management team have in our longer-term strategy to improve our profitability, increased stockholder value.
And now I'll turn the call back over to Keith to discuss our 2024 and beyond outlook.
Keith?
Keith Harvey
Thanks, Neil. Now I'll turn to our outlook for the fiscal year of 2024.
Beginning with aerospace on slide 13. The strong momentum we've been experiencing in aero and high-strength shipments is expected to carry over into 2024 and beyond, supported by improved declarations by our customers for large commercial jets and strong demand for our products projected for defense space, business jet and other industrial high strength applications. It has become increasingly evident that as demand for our products grows, our customers expect us to invest for additional capacity to meet their needs. Therefore, we are moving forward with the initial investment in our previously announced Phase seven expansion at our Trentwood rolling mill. When initially proposed in early 2020, the total cost of the Phase seven investments, it was estimated to be approximately $225 million over several years with an expected 20% to 25% increase in total capacity. However, the Phase seven launch was delayed due to the pandemic in the time since then our team has been able to further evaluate and provide options to drill to deliver the initial incremental increase of capacity with more modest investment. Currently, we expect initial investments of approximately $25 million to yield an additional 5% to 6% increase of overall capacity for aerospace and general engineering products, which will be the first of multiple investments planned over the next several years at Trentwood, culmination of which is expected to deliver the earlier announced increasing capacity. We expect capital outlays for this initial investment will be approximately $10 million. This year with the balance applied in the first half of 2025. The increased capacity is expected to be available to our customers beginning in the second half of 2025. Our team will continue to evaluate efficient, lower-cost options to deliver the full capacity expected from the Phase seven expansion to meet the needs of our customers and deliver value to our shareholders 2024 Aero and high-strength shipments and conversion revenue are expected to improve approximately 1% to 2% versus 2023, as we now expect improving general engineering demand in the second half of the year, which utilizes much of the same capacity as some aerospace products.
Turning now to Packaging on Slide 14. As discussed previously, we began experiencing destocking from our food packaging customers in the second half of 2023, we felt that destocking in these products would not be as prolonged as we experienced on the beverage side of our business in late 2022 and through most of 2023. Based on discussions with our customers, we now expect destocking for these products to moderate and end some time. During the first quarter of this year, our customers have indicated expected sales growth in 2024 in the mid-single digits above 2023 levels as a result, we now expect our packaging shipments and conversion revenue two improve by approximately 5% to 7% in 2024 year over year. We have a number of exciting and impactful initiatives underway at our work facility in 2024 our new Roll Coater s installation is progressing well and is on time for completion by the end of the year. With production expected to commence in 2025. As we previously stated, this is a high value project expected to convert approximately 25% of our existing capacity to higher value added coated products fully implemented. This project is expected to have a 300 basis point to 400 basis point impact on overall margins. To date, we have a large portion of this capacity already committed with discussions underway for the balance upon exiting our hot metal supply agreement with the adjacent Alcoa smelter at year end 2023, we have successfully implemented a new metal input strategy at the rolling mill, utilizing a significantly higher mix of used beverage cans and recycled scrap in our mix, which will greatly improve our greenhouse gas footprint once the strategy is fully implemented this year, we estimate the run-rate impact of this revised strategy. We'll deliver a consolidated margin improvement by 150 to 200 basis points on a full year basis. We remain excited about the potential for our packaging business with strong secular growth expected in the 3% to 5% range, coupled with our long-standing customer relationships with multiyear contracts and a focus on higher margin value-added coated products. We're confident in the positive outlook for this business longer term.
Now turning to general engineering on slide 15 distributors continued to reduce inventories for both plate and long products through the fourth quarter of 2023. However, we are experiencing an increase in order rates for all general engineered products since the start of 2024 and believe destocking could end early this year. We now feel the fourth quarter of 2023 was the trough for demand and we expect improving shipments and conversion revenue as we progress into 2024. More specifically as semiconductor plate demand gains momentum in the second half of 2024 and into 2025. We expect capacity from our initial Phase seven investment will support additional growth in these markets and provide the catalyst for future planned investments at our Trentwood operations as a result, we expect shipments in 2024 to improve by approximately 5% to 6%, with resulting conversion revenue to be flat to up 1% compared with 2023, as we expect modest pressure on prices earlier in the year as demand improves. Longer term, we are maintaining a positive outlook for our general engineering business on the whole given the reshoring of certain manufacturing industries back to North America.
Next, I'll turn to automotive on Slide 16. Higher build rates for trucks and light vehicles in North America have driven a steady recovery in the automotive market throughout 2023, which we expect will carry over into 2024. As a result, we expect our 2024 auto shipments and conversion revenue to increase 3% to 5% from 2023 levels.
Turning to slide 17, I'll now turn to our summary outlook for the full year 2024 we expect demand will continue to improve across all of our key markets. As a result, we expect conversion revenue to improve 2% to 3%, with expected EBITDA margins improving by 70 to 170 basis points year over year. Manufacturing efficiencies are also expected to improve as demand recovers and our operations continue to stabilize. These efficiencies are expected to help partially offset expected higher labor and medical costs.
In summary, despite all of its challenges, 2023 turned out to be a strategically important year for Kaiser as we laid the groundwork necessary to capture the numerous opportunities ahead of us. The combination of our strong market position as a key supplier in diverse end markets with multiyear contracts and with key strategic partners, strong liquidity position and a flexible nature of our cost structure positions us well for long-term sustainable growth.
With that, I will now open the call to any questions.
You may have. Operator?
Question and Answer Session
Operator
Thank you. We will now be conducting a question and answer session. If you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. A confirmation tone will indicate that your line is in the question queue. You may press star two. If you would like to remove your question from the For participants using speaker equipment it may be necessary to pick up your handset before pressing the start.
One moment, please while we poll for questions.
Our first question comes from Josh Sullivan with The Benchmark Company.
Please proceed with your question.
Josh Sullivan
Hey, Good morning.
Keith Harvey
Morning, Jeff.
Josh Sullivan
Just wanted to get a feel for what has been the market response for aerospace plate?
Yes, the production caps for the [737] was put in place?
Keith Harvey
Well, you know, they I think Boeing had planned on moving up from its current 38 rate, Josh. And so they're going to be staying at that 38 rate until the FAA and Boeing agree that they've met the quality requirements to enable them to move.
And from a Kaiser perspective, yes, Bouygues, an important and large customer with us, but it gets back to the beauty, and we've talked about this for years, the diversity of our business. So we have talked for a long time about being a big part of business jet, a big part of defense, a big part of other programs that are going out there and other large commercial airframes. So where we're seeing strength perhaps capped in one area. We have got opportunities in other areas that are continue to draw on our capacity. And when you look at the combination of what we see in the markets overall. And coupled with the fact of what we expect in talking with customers on the general engineering side of our business, it really drove us to us to announce the launch of Phase seven at Trentwood, and we have been watching this closely. But then with the strength that we saw last year, the recovery that came back to the levels, at least on conversion revenue. It really drove us to look at this expansion to take care of these markets. And I would say that I said it in my comments, but it was really the Trentwood team.
He's been extremely innovative over the years.
You know, we've done six of these expansions. They've done them. Each one of those were done while we were basically red lined at current capacity levels and they have continued to work and develop on more efficient, lower cost ways to add capacity. And so that really encouraged us with all the market demand drivers, I spoke to to begin the launch of Phase seven. So overall, we still see a really strong drop overall for the entire market.
Josh Sullivan
Got it.
Got it.
And then maybe what data points specifically are you seeing that gives you confidence on the food packaging side that that cycle is indeed recovering here? Or is looking to recover?
Keith Harvey
Well, it's up. It's not a huge, a broad category of customers can or that. And of course, we're a large player there.
So we have good discussions with our customer base on a regular basis.
So we've been in discussions with them since the fourth quarter of last year about how things look. And then I think it's also being reinforced a number of those have already had their earnings calls and they've mentioned about growth, but reoccurring here in 2024 and back to that mid single digit growth over the entire year of last year. So I think when you couple that together, we feel pretty good. We're seeing the order rates begin to perk back up. And I think that they will only strengthen as we get into the typical strong demand quarters of the second and third quarter for that business. So so we feel that that destocking mode should be behind us after the early part of the year here.
Josh Sullivan
Great.
Thank you for the time.
Keith Harvey
Thank you, Josh.
Operator
Our next question comes from Bill Peterson with JPMorgan. Please proceed with your question.
Bill Peterson
Yes, hi, good morning and thanks for taking taking the question on the on the EBITDA sort of guide 70 basis points, 170 basis point improvement, how should we think about the cadence? You talked about some of the drivers, some of the puts and takes. But how should we think about the cadence for some of these improvements as you move through the year? Should this be more back half-weighted or just some seasonality associated with this? Any sort of color there would be helpful.
Keith Harvey
Sure. Well, we're still starting out the first part of the year and some of the destocking bill on the especially on the packaging and on the general engineering products, we do expect those to improve as we go through the year. So I would say probably the first quarter will be our most challenging year from a demand perspective.
Okay. And then as we as we move forward in the year. We're also projecting some increases in our efficiencies through the operations. So obviously, as demand settles down and actually starts to recover, our operations have stabilized, we worked a lot on costs and continue to work on costs as we go forward. So we should expect with demand increase the businesses to stabilize and we see some improvement as we get to the latter part of the year. You'll start to see a momentum pickup from quarter to quarter from the second quarter through the balance of the year is our outlook for right now.
Bill Peterson
Okay.
Thanks for that. I'm not sure if this hits in this, you're not. But on this packaging raw materials strategy, can you discuss the raw material sourcing this 150 to 200 basis point improvement on consolidated margins. I guess can you provide additional color here on this on your strategy, including the timing of some of this hit this year? Or is this really more beyond this year?
Keith Harvey
No doubt we'll start out a good bit this year. We're ramping up the first part of the year, Bill, but this has been a strategy that that we've been looking to deploy really for the last two to three years. We did not feel long term that a supply position from with using prime metal from a coal fired power facility was was going to really meet the requirements for our greenhouse gas and the requirements that our customers were putting on us for the use of more recycled content in their products.
And so this is something we've been working to towards.
Our agreement was officially up with Alcoa at the end of the year. And so in the latter part of last year, we had been executing using more secondary, more scrap from other sources, and we have really worked to perfect that and worked that well within our process. As you imagine, it could be a little different than working just across the aisle from a smelter. But the team there has done an excellent job, and we've proven that we can move away from a big part from prime and move to secondary. There are obviously cost advantages associated with that, which gives us comfort in giving a little bit of that guidance out there of what the impact of this is going to be. So quite frankly, we just fully expect this to keep ramping up, and we're pretty encouraged by the results that we've seen so far.
So as we get more efficient in this process, I think we'll be able to submit those kind of margin improvements with that metal strategy.
Bill Peterson
I think that maybe just picking piggyback on the last point on, you know, I guess if you think about the broader scrap market in the U.S., especially over a longer period especially considering with two rolling mills ramping and your additional capacity as well. How do you see the supply situation given that ultimately there's going to be a lot stronger demand for this discrepancy?
Keith Harvey
Yes. No, I think that's going to be a strategic input from any producer. And we've certainly been spending a lot of time on developing relationships with suppliers and ensuring that we have the right amount of availability from either prime resources globally and or secondary and scrap resources here in North America. So I think it's going to be a critical part Kaiser's taking that extremely important part of our strategy going forward.
So this is the a really a culmination of the last couple of years. What are we going to do especially with the with work. And but we've also really been developing that strategy for all of our businesses. So from the extrusion side, which we've historically used large amount of scrap and those those those relationships that we have more on a regional basis there, they're really sound and we've been executing there for a number of years. So but I think it's a critical part of the go-forward strategy. Now we expect more scrap availability, but those relationships and the availability of that will be a key strategic component of anybody's game plan.
Bill Peterson
Okay. Thanks.
I'll pass on.
Keith Harvey
Thank you, Bill
Operator
Our next question comes from Timna Tanners with Wolfe Research. Please proceed with your question.
Timna Tanners
Yes, good morning, guys.
Keith Harvey
Hi, Timna.
Timna Tanners
Hello I'd say another one I wanted to dive a little bit more into some of the end market discussion in particular on the auto side was just kind of interested in the sizable on increase of a really strong year, which just kind of how does that jive with some of the concern over inventory we're already getting rebuilt and maybe EV demand falling a bit. Like is there something perhaps about aluminum taking share or some other opportunity that we might be?
Keith Harvey
Well, we've been following that as well Timna.
Then it seems like especially over the last few months, a slowdown on the demand for EV.s from a multitude of reasons. Perhaps transitioning is always bumpy. But but the good thing about our business is, is that we've been very focused on, especially on the ICE side of the business on light truck and SUVs. And as the business has somewhat slowed on the EVs that the business around the trucks and SUVs have been fairly fairly robust and we've been associated with those programs for a good while we also have parts that we've been supplying forever, for instance, like ABS brakes, systems wear a large supplier into that side of the business. Of course, whether it's an EV or an ICE vehicle, all of those require the use of ABS brake systems and so forth. So I feel pretty good about our ability to probably weather this transition. But it's always we're a little we're a little cautious, lot of changes that have taken place there that as the strike sorry, to the UAW strike that sorted blends out and figures out where things are going to be. I like our position is, as you know, it's probably only about 8% or 9% of our total conversion revenue. So perhaps not as impactful to us as perhaps others, but I like where our contracts are. In course, we'll just we'll weather the transition with the rest of the market.
Timna Tanners
Okay, fair.
That's helpful. And I wanted to also ask a little bit more about Phase seven has been on the past. You had talked about kind of putting that on hold for the time being. And now it sounds like you have got a strategy that enables you to stretch that out. But can you talk a little bit more about it seems like predominantly people are finding cost overruns. And in fact, in this case, it sounds like you're able to do the expansion maybe with less on investment. So can you elaborate more on how that's going to work and how to think about the timing of that cadence?
Keith Harvey
Yes. What we really like, Timna is large projects. And I think as you've seen from a number of folks in our space and in the steel space and so forth, we weren't the only one that was subject to a lot of inflationary cost material, high cost and so forth. So those are always a challenge in these types of environments. What really really excited us and really got us to the point of launching the Phase seven is that this is more in alignment with how we did the previous six expansions there. These are more bite-size type investments that we can make. So there have a lower impact on that.
On the operating business. We're still very mindful of the fact that we're going to move as quickly as possible. And I think you saw some pretty good headway we made on our on our leverage numbers. And so we're really mindful of maintaining that maintaining our dividend and maintaining our IT. But also committing to the growth for our customers here and that that really put us on the over the top there. We're to the point and you saw how the demand was for Arrow for us in the fourth quarter. It's really come back as fast or faster than we would have expected. So one might say we might be a little behind the time on launching this. But I think we're I like the cadence of being able to do these in smaller buckets, more manageable size and then get those those increments of capacity into the business within a one year time period as opposed to these large projects that typically take multi-year to deliver any kind of return on the investment. So and of course, these investments that we're making at Trentwood. These are all in those up those historically high, mid 20% to high 20% margin type product. So those always are pretty exciting for us to be able to launch and take advantage of.
Timna Tanners
Okay, helpful. And last one for me was just them would be curious to get your thoughts on the impact of medical things outside of your company specific. So starting with Novellus above budget and extending the timeframe of their startup on any potential 10% tariff, President Trump is reelected and any potential additional tariffs on Russian aluminum supply does due would be great to get any high-level thoughts on those possible outcomes or at least the latter two.
Keith Harvey
Sure. Look, with regard to Novellus, um, look, we we understand that it was really tough to come back. And if you look at the percentage increase, that's gone up and the delay that they had and we were we were up perhaps suffering through the same thing, the percent increase, even though it's got a couple of more zeros approach to it, which for them was about the same that we had with our large project, the roll code at work. So a little bit of a mix expectation that that that misery loves company. So we were all saying the same things. So but they're a great company that they'll get through that very knowledgeable in the packaging and the automotive. So they'll they'll get that that out over time, I suspect you'll see that in all large projects that have been launched. We certainly haven't been insulated nor has anyone else stem from the inflationary costs that have impacted. But we've continued to see the reasonings for expansion because growth is occurring and we either have to keep up with our customers or we're going to be we're going to we're going to be left behind so that focus there.
Moving over to tariffs.
Look, with regard to tariffs on Russian material, we made a commitment as a company when their Ukrainian war started out that we weren't going to two, I've worked with any types of companies and or materials from Russia. So that really wouldn't impact us. I know perhaps the LME will see what impact that would have, but the Kaiser buys metal from a lot of sources. And I'm confident and actually pleased with the fact that we don't use Russian material.
And then with regard to tariffs, that might take place or I know Tim, that we've come to learn to react to many things in this industry and ties, and we'll continue to do that. We'll react. We'll do the right things for our company for our country. And then obviously for our shareholders, we're going to we're well diverse and a lot of areas and done. I don't see how tariffs going to take off from the demand of our products because a lot of focus here in North America, but may provide an opportunity, a catalyst for us actually an incentive, but we're pretty well positioned to weather those things. As you know, tariffs have been in place with Chinese companies for years and in multiple products and come and go and we just have learned to operate in a very different environment.
Neal West
I mean to add to that, too, Tim knows that remember, we put in the contained metal pass-through at the beginning 2023 to ensure that any of the impacts to alloys and aluminum, those things like amount of pass-through costs and that contained metals or those tariffs come through. We've now got those mechanisms in place to make sure that this rolls through our pricing mechanisms.
Timna Tanners
Okay, great.
Thanks again.
Keith Harvey
Thank you.
Operator
Our next question comes from Curt Woodworth with UBS. Please proceed.
With your question.
Curt Woodworth
Yes, thanks.
Good morning.
I guess I kind of think of it, but the trajectory of that, it's packaging EBITDA. So you have the Walker line at [300] to 400 basis points. You talked about the raw materials kind of scrap integration, getting another 150 to 200 and then obviously you probably have more operating leverage coming through the system later this year and next year. Is there a way to maybe quantify what you think the EBITDA uplift could be from those things?
And as my first question.
Keith Harvey
Yeah. what we tried to do, Kurt, and I will listen to a lot of you about and understanding we have been talking about how this portfolio of businesses we believe we could moved back to Kaiser's historic mid 20s type margin and above, and we haven't made it easy for people to understand that with the challenges we've had over the last couple of years. So so there's been a lot of volatility that we've dealt with. And as you know, we don't from our segmentation perspective, Kaiser doesn't break out EBITDA for those various businesses. But what we wanted to do was to trying to give a bridge from where we are or have been to where we think we're driving the business. So that people can understand a little bit more what we intend to do and how that's going to impact and get us back up to those levels. So for instance, if you look at the call out that you mentioned on on the packaging, especially with the metal strategy and the and the roll coat and really that that's not adding to adding capacity at adding roll coat coated capacity so that we can move our existing capacity to a higher margin, which is one of the traits that Kaiser does in all of our businesses. So you begin to start seeing how we can bridge from where we end up at 14, [14], [3] for last year. So you can start seeing how the progressive when we bring these capacities, these innovations online, when we get efficiencies, we'll start giving a little bit more clarity into what those efficiency gains, what those investment gains will be to help you on your models as you tried to see how we're going to get from here to there.
Curt Woodworth
Is there a way to quantify the EBITDA improvement from those two initiatives you announced or give us a sense for maybe what you believe the EBITDA upside as/
Keith Harvey
Well with when we gave those that outlook and that's the impact on the overall business with those investments so it's not that's not really relegated to just the packaging.
That's the overall consolidated our business, the reference there, perhaps that wasn't as clear.
Curt Woodworth
So so the if you sum the high end of those two pieces. It's 600 basis points of margin uplift across the consolidated value added revenue of the business?
Keith Harvey
as you've got it, that that's the way we laid it out for you.
Curt Woodworth
All right.
That's very helpful. And then I guess with respect to aerospace, I'm looking conversion revenue up 1% to 2%.
Yes, I assume there's still some inflationary pressures in the business. You highlighted labor, Medical. Maybe you're getting some relief on energy, but some and then there's productivity. But would you expect your aero high-strength business? Can you get EBITDA growth of a 1% revenue conversion revenue increase this year?
Keith Harvey
Yes, yes, we can and out because let me tell you one of the reasons that the arrow is going to I wouldn't perhaps be as high as what we the increment that we had last year. It's back to my comment about general engineering beginning to recover in the second half. And so we've got a commitment to our service center customers, some large OEMs and other markets that that we're not going to cut them out just for because aerospace is returning. If you can recall, we had that conflict in 2019. And so we made a commitment to those customers that we were going to not only service the growth for Aero, but we're going to be in a position to service their needs on general engineering. So that's a reflection of moving part of that capacity to general engineering, most likely in the second half.
The other component there, Kurt, is that as you recall, a lot of the aerospace is contractual business. So there's not going to be a lot of change on the pricing for a good portion of that business. Those contracts are generally multi-year that are in place. So any additional capacity we've had in the past, we've applied to spot business, which has been pretty pretty pretty good for us as well.
Well, the business in general engineering for spot business is is equal to the returns that we can get on air almost. So we're going to make sure that we cover all parties, but it's back to the reasoning that we just we've launched face up to the point we need more capacity. And and we like the way we're going to lay it in over multi-year, smaller increments, and it allows us to make sure that we grow with our customers.
Curt Woodworth
Okay.
And then how should we think about CapEx for 25? And you talked about the majority of the Roll Coater spend will be finished this year, but then you may have a little bit incremental on Phase seven. Are there any other moving pieces or carryover CapEx to think about that? Thank you.
Keith Harvey
Yes, not not at this point and not at those levels. Some so we have our sustaining CapEx, we've talked about roughly $60 million roughly will have smaller and we should have the roll coat line completed the majority of that spending behind us and so other than sustaining and some smaller growth potentials like like I could envision for the second phase seven or something of that magnitude of magnitude. We expect that that spending will dramatically reduce in the out years spent in starting in 25.
Curt Woodworth
Okay.
Makes sense.
Thank you.
Keith Harvey
Thank you.
Operator
Our next question comes from Josh Sullivan with The Benchmark Company.
Please proceed with your question.
Josh Sullivan
Hey, if you get an overlapping semiconductor cycle and an aerospace cycle that commitment you just referenced to the GE. market, is you still going to be a spot-based market or but I guess how much of the current expansion that you're talking about this year is speculative versus contracted?
Keith Harvey
Well, a change that's taken place, Josh, for generally general engineering has historically been the spot market, but for a lot of the large OEMs that are that are going to be requiring some of our product. They're interested in multiyear contractual agreements. And that's a little bit because what they've experienced is what happened in the aerospace a number of years back at their growth. It can be limited by the availability of existing capacity. And so as they look more strategically of securing their business and their growth, they're more interested in entering into multiyear agreements. And of course, we are going to take care of our service centers customers. But some of these large OEMs with reshoring that's taking place, provide really great opportunities for us. They love our Kaiser Select products and their preferred and again, great growth opportunity for us. And again, a reinforcement for Phase I.
Josh Sullivan
And then maybe just what do lead times look like at those service centers fare?
Carol, high strength right now?
Keith Harvey
Well, it varies by area by supplier. I can tell you that that Kaiser is and has been on allocation for a long time, and we're currently on allocated to customers and another reason for Phase 7 our launch.
Josh Sullivan
Got it. Thank you for the time.
Keith Harvey
Thank you.
Operator
There are no further questions at this time. I would now like to turn the floor back over to Keith Harvey for closing comments.
Keith Harvey
Okay.
Thank you, Maria, and thanks for everyone for being with us today, and I look forward to updating you on our first quarter 2024 results in April.
Thank you.
Operator
This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.
